German Shepherd/Alsatian split? Discussions

What are your thoughts on this ...

http://www.videxgsd.com/gsd_alsatian_ballot.htm

I am not at all convinced it is a good idea, or even necessary. Personally, I think breeders should be aiming to breed a middle of the road dog, without exaggerations, and focusing on the health and temperament.

The breed should be "fit for function" - ie able to work all day, have an excellent temperament, steady nerve, and be healthy and free from exaggeration. JMO.

Is the difference merely in the breeding line?
Sorry to show my ignorance, I have been wanting to ask the question re difference in name for a while

Err, well I'm confused to start with as I thought they were the same breed?

What would be classed as a GSD and what as an Alsatian?

I definitely agree with your comments though about avoiding breeding extremes.

I am also confused. I thought german shepherds were given the name alsation because of anti-german feeling after second world war. A lot of people still call them alsations. So what would be the difference between the two groups?

Presumably the Alsatian would be the more UK lines, straighter backed and the GSD the German lines, the more over exaggerated (IMO) dog.

No I don't really agree as surely this will just make it ok to breed the GSD to the exaggerations that are currently being worked on to make the breed more sound? And the Alsatian would be the one which is changed to the ideal which the KC is now trying to get breeders to aim for by changing the standard?

german shepherds and alsations are the SAME breed. they were originally called alsations but as alsatia is a place where they did not originate from the name was changed to german shepherds(i may be wrong!)

the dogs are the same breed but people(mainly breeders) belive that the 'old style' gsds that were called alsations- are incorrect(they call them alsations because at the time when the gsd was called alsation was the time when they were square backed and of different type than they were later bred to be, hence nowadays the name alsation is used to describe the square backed/non current standard gsd.

this isnt the best pic of an 'alsation' but the best example i could find...
http://www.shawlein.com/The_Standard/13_Breed_Type/old_style.JPG

this is a current standard gsd example
http://www.conadrew.co.uk/Abbey stance.jpg

If they were to be seperated as a breed then my sadie would fall 100% into the 'alsation' category whereas yoda is middle of the road...so where would he belong?
the idea of seperating the breed is ridiculous and just encourages the breeders of the exagerated gsds to move more away from the origins of the breed.

agree totally with this.

If you look at the new pictures on the revised KC standards I am assuming the Alsation would look more like this:

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/136

And the GSD like this:

http://www.doggies.com/images-new/breed-guide-dog-photos/German_Shepherd_Dog_body.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_4vn24YA-Rc4/R-PDF7cUVPI/AAAAAAAAAOI/2XVD7BdM3is/s400/roach.bmp

Yes the 2 names arose out of the perceptions of the public during and after WW2, and were originally meant to refer to the same dog, however, as I understand it the names GSD and Alsation now refer to two different types of shepherd (albeit still the same breed). The following link gives a good summary of the different lines/types of shepherd. The GSD showline, which is what Mr Payne is referring to in Moobli's link is shown first, the English Alsatian shown 7th.
http://www.shawlein.com/The_Standard/13_Breed_Type/Breed_Types.html

Also as I understand it Mr Payne's concern is that new KC amendments to the gsd standard is intended to create a dogs which resemble the alsatian. His arguement is that the GSD is a german breed and therefore the KC should follow the german standard now make up their own. Now because judges here are following the KC standard, and not the SV german standard, the type of dog winning in UK showrings, will not be the one which conforms to the german standard. If you look at the proposed standard for the gsd on the KC website the illustrative picture of the shepherd looks like an alsatian and not the germanic showline:

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/136

They want to split the breed to save the germanic gsd, and not have it diluted by bringing in 'alsatian like' characteristics.

I myself, can see the logic in following the standard of the country where the breed originated. The amendments in the standard obviously came as a result of the pressure following the pedigree dogs exposed documentary and are a bit of a knee jerk reaction. I have not looked at the german standard, and do not know whether it calls for 'extremes' in the dogs, but as in a lot of things, I imagine that the shape of dogs has to do more with the interpretation of the standard to suit the current fashion, rather than with the words of the standard themselves.

wheres the link? as the one you gave is the kc bs:?

Er yes you are totally wrong

The Deutsche Schaferhund has always been the correct name for the breed.

After the end of WW I some rather poor examples dogs were brought back to the UK by troops, because of the total hatred for the Germans in the UK at the time, the breed was actually called Alsatian Wolfdog when first recognized as a breed, because some had been seen in Alsace Lorraine & they were thought to look like wolves(Dachshunds had been attacked in the street both during & after the war)

Because the breed became feared because they were thought to be part wolf(which they weren't)they dropped the Wolfdog part in the 1920s

The Kennel Club then refused to change the name to that correct one & insisted on calling them Alsatian(German Shepherd Dog)for the next 50 odd years, until Raymond Oppenheimer proposed a name change to GSD(Alsatian)in the 1971 at that years KC Annual General Meeting.

This is what the "Alsatianists"consider to be the perfect dog

​

Note the second of the dogs on the link is a Crufts BIS winner & a son of an epileptic who is behind most of the epileptics in the English bred dogs(& also pet bred ones sadly)

This is what I consider to be a good example of a German Shepherd

​

A German bred import with an excellent character & temperament. He had perfect hips as a bonus & was the sire of both real working dogs(as in police)& top winning show dogs

Nothing the KC do to the GSD breed standard will really affect the breeders who prefer the type bred in Germany as what will happen is they will hold shows as they are in Germany outside the KC jurisdiction(& which the KC cannot stop)& grade the dogs as they do in Germany, only using the KC to register the dogs & record health test results. Sadly for breed the Alsatianists do not health test nor bother about temperament or soundness & as these will be the type that is put before the public at KC shows & be successful as the correct type will not be seen in KC rings(& ergo @ Crufts etc)& the public will be swayed to buy their basically unhealthy puppies

that may be a dog YOU consider as a good gsd but that is not what is being shown in the ring- actually it is far from it- that is not what showline breeders are calling a good gsd as if they were why would they breed exagerations into the breed

just like to point out that german bred dogs are known to carry epilepsy- it is not just english lines. as i know you, joedee can be very anti-english lines!

Sorry gsdmad, I've edited the link in now.

You have been to Germany then ? He was a V rated dog & at his Breed survey was also V rated.

I take it this is your preferred type ?

As opposed to this type

(Germany VA2 dog)​

The top being a top winning Alsatian(not hip scored etc of course & having to be strung up to be shown)from parents who have not been hip/elbow scored etc

The lower being a fully health tested dog(with a pedigree of fully health tested ancestors who all had working qualifications), who has passed a breed survey & who has working qualifications

Question:- Which is fit for purpose ?

Hendrawen's Quadrille of Eveley is found behind around 95% of English bred epileptics & his son is what the UK club consider to be a good dog-despite having an epileptic father. It typifies the club's ethics-ie it's only the viual that matters

If you read my original post you will note I wrote "English"bred epileptics as oppsed to "German"bred epileptics. The SV advise to breed away from epilepsy producing lines not towards them as the UK club does !

BTW Joedee is my cavalier dog ! not me. He has as far as I know nothing against any type of GSD-in fact he loves them all

Joedee, I have to say that the dog you post as a good eg of the GSD, is also my preferred look of gsd. I do not like the construction of either the alsatian pic you posted, nor the modern showline dogs, with their overangulated hindquarters and curved backs.

I have to say, regardless of the the rights and wrongs of the KC changing the breed standard and not following the SV standard that the new pic of the gsd posted on their website is of a moderate well constructed dog, which has none of the exagerations of the germanic showline, or the alsatian:
http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/136

And, although many germanic showline people don't like it and claim that it is alsatianlike in looks, it is not dissimilar in construction to the gsds around when the founder of the breed was alive, or indeed the dog posted by Joedee as a good eg of the breed:

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/2008.html

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/1629.html

I would much prefer dogs to look like the ones in those two links, or the one posted by Joedee, than the modern germanic showlines.

Joedee, definitely the german dogs you have posted are fit for purpose, but presumably, neither of these dogs are being paraded in the showrings of germany, being working type dogs?

Are the german showline dogs not more like this in type?

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/341400.html

Sure, the dogs you have posted have their breed surveys and are V rated, but Zamp looks nothing like them, and it is Zamp, not the lovely dogs you have posted which is being hailed as the most perfect, least exagerrated gsd. This is what saddens me about the state that the gsd has gotten into.

The Grey German dog I posted is of course the VA2(Reserve Sieger 2000, 2001)Timo vom Berrekasten SCHH3, IPO3, FH2 Kkl 1. He isn't a working bred GSD & neither is the dog in the black & white photo

BTW I am not a Zamp fan ! My next GSD will be from Koenigin which are working bred GSDs

err funnily enough i dont really care hwat your name is, although your SCREEN name is joedee so that what i call you as it is easier than looking at your profile to find out your name!!

you are very selective on what dogs you show as your examples. as skilaki says, zamp, and other show dogs are nothing like the picture you posted.
As for which dog i prefer?...neither, middle of the road, well balanced, fit for purpose is the dog i like with no exaggerations.