Northern Inuit Dog

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If NI are so unhealthy................... Discussions

Discussion in 'Northern Inuit Dog' started by liz & kiesha, Feb 12, 2009.

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liz & kiesha New Member

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Liz

#41 Feb 13, 2009

Is it NI's or are you going in another direction? I mean by that a different type of dog?

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Jem New Member

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Jemma

#42 Feb 13, 2009

liz & kiesha said: ↑

Is it NI's or are you going in another direction? I mean by that a different type of dog?
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I have 2 breeds in mind at the min but yes one of them is NI but like i said its not anytime soon and there are still some things that need to change for me to be 100% dedicated towards this decision x
liz & kiesha New Member

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Liz

#43 Feb 13, 2009

Ok i'm officially confused Jem, i thought Shila was pet quality only & Isis x Husky?
Are you buying more dogs?
Jem New Member

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Jemma

#44 Feb 13, 2009

liz & kiesha said: ↑

Ok i'm officially confused Jem, i thought Shila was pet quality only & Isis x Husky?
Are you buying more dogs?
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My girls will be spayed this year probably in the next few months, so yes i will be buying more dogs IF i decide im going to be breeding x
liz & kiesha New Member

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Liz

#45 Feb 13, 2009

Ah, lots of research to do then. Good luck.
Sansorrella

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Sandra

#46 Feb 14, 2009

mse2ponder said: ↑

The reason inbreeding has negative effects is due to increased likelihood that a dog will inherit two of the same recessive genes, these may be disease genes, or genes for another trait (i.e. traits characteristic of a breed, such as coat colour or conformation). This is well documented. Outtbreeding, by contrast (ie. putting an NI to another breed) means that the parents are less likely to share genes and therefore less likely to contribute two of the same recessive alleles of a gene (so are less likely to suffer from inherited conditions).

So to summarise, the point of outcrossing is to improve genetic diversity with the hope of making breeds as a whole, more healthy. People who are using NIs and outcrossing to other breeds are probably doing it because they, like you, love the breed, and are seeking to improve it - it's not really a question of 'if they are so unhealthy, why are they using them?'. I hope this answers the question somewhat; if not, just read up on population genetics, and it will definitely be explained better! It's a brilliant thing to be doing, and I believe that other pedigree dog breeds would benefit from a bit of outcrossing here and there.
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A brilliant post - I couldn't have put it better myself!
Cheyenne

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Marie

#47 Feb 14, 2009

mse2ponder said: ↑

The reason inbreeding has negative effects is due to increased likelihood that a dog will inherit two of the same recessive genes, these may be disease genes, or genes for another trait (i.e. traits characteristic of a breed, such as coat colour or conformation). This is well documented. Outtbreeding, by contrast (ie. putting an NI to another breed) means that the parents are less likely to share genes and therefore less likely to contribute two of the same recessive alleles of a gene (so are less likely to suffer from inherited conditions).

So to summarise, the point of outcrossing is to improve genetic diversity with the hope of making breeds as a whole, more healthy. People who are using NIs and outcrossing to other breeds are probably doing it because they, like you, love the breed, and are seeking to improve it - it's not really a question of 'if they are so unhealthy, why are they using them?'. I hope this answers the question somewhat; if not, just read up on population genetics, and it will definitely be explained better! It's a brilliant thing to be doing, and I believe that other pedigree dog breeds would benefit from a bit of outcrossing here and there.
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This is what I have been trying to get across, but am terrible with words.

werewolf said: ↑

Another thing is ref the NID being crossed with the wolf dogs, a couple of the breeders have made it quite clear they are no longer breeding NIDs, but are moving on and one has even said 'there is no future for NIs' (taken from post 1542, link below*) . What I am highlighting is, their intention to cross these dogs isn't to improve/help the breed, it is clearly for their own agendas:-( ££££££££££

*
http://www.dogsey.com/showthread.php?t=97653&page=155
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As the breed stands now, no they don't. That is why outcrossing is needed.

mse2ponder said: ↑

Some very good points, but I don't really think you can say categorically that "The NI doesn't need outcrossing". Yes, most will appear healthy (of course they blooming well should!), but the incidence of any inherited genetic conditions at this stage (only 20 years in) is a worry, and could be evidence of lack of genetic diversity. This will never improve if new blood isn't added, and obviously, the same can be said for most breeds of pedigree dog! This is something I believe the KC should be addressing, but hey, you don't have to deal with them!

To me, all these reports of conditions that are likely to be genetic, coupled with some of the shocking pedigrees ring huge alarm bells. I know nothing you see on the internet can be taken as gospel though, but I still find it hard to see how you could come to the conclusion that 'outbreeding is not needed'. The only way you could really come to this kind of conclusion would be to scientifically investigate the genetic diversity of the NI.

I can see it from both sides though - outcrossing can't really be bad for the NI (providing it is done with care, research and planning like you say), but at the same time, I can see why it looks like some are hopping on a bandwagon, and if they don't really care about breeding the Northern Inuit anymore and believe them to be unhealthy, using them in a breeding programme would be pretty pointless!

Why are there these extremes though? Doesn't anyone believe that some careful, occasional outcrossing could actually benefit the NI as a breed? Why is it so polarised? It seems like people think either: the NI is perfectly fine and will be forever or there's no hope for it as a breed so we'll just use NIs to cross with others? Seems really odd to me. I guess I'd be a member of the British Utonagan Society!
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Well said!
Sansorrella

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Sandra

#48 Feb 14, 2009

mse2ponder said: ↑

Some very good points, but I don't really think you can say categorically that "The NI doesn't need outcrossing". Yes, most will appear healthy (of course they blooming well should!), but the incidence of any inherited genetic conditions at this stage (only 20 years in) is a worry, and could be evidence of lack of genetic diversity. This will never improve if new blood isn't added, and obviously, the same can be said for most breeds of pedigree dog! This is something I believe the KC should be addressing, but hey, you don't have to deal with them!

To me, all these reports of conditions that are likely to be genetic, coupled with some of the shocking pedigrees ring huge alarm bells. I know nothing you see on the internet can be taken as gospel though, but I still find it hard to see how you could come to the conclusion that 'outbreeding is not needed'. The only way you could really come to this kind of conclusion would be to scientifically investigate the genetic diversity of the NI.

I can see it from both sides though - outcrossing can't really be bad for the NI (providing it is done with care, research and planning like you say), but at the same time, I can see why it looks like some are hopping on a bandwagon, and if they don't really care about breeding the Northern Inuit anymore and believe them to be unhealthy, using them in a breeding programme would be pretty pointless!

Why are there these extremes though? Doesn't anyone believe that some careful, occasional outcrossing could actually benefit the NI as a breed? Why is it so polarised? It seems like people think either: the NI is perfectly fine and will be forever or there's no hope for it as a breed so we'll just use NIs to cross with others? Seems really odd to me. I guess I'd be a member of the British Utonagan Society!
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Yep - outcrossing is necessary - for a generation or maybe two - then cross back to 'as good as possible' NI. This should benefit the breed - but as already mentioned the results won't show for a few years and a few more generations.
Sansorrella

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Sandra

#49 Feb 14, 2009

Lunakitty321 said: ↑

If the whole society would agree to it, or at least be accepting and have a plan...i could see it as being beneficial....but if not everyone supports it, the mixed pups would just be culled (in the true sense of the word)...and time would be wasted that could be used to better the breed. Me personally...I wouldn't want a mixed NI. IMO, it seems like the owners that have the most problems with NI are people that have one of these "stronger outcrossed" NI (no doubt due to breeders with poor advice, little research, and money on their minds).

And as far as line breeding goes...my vizsla has just as much, if not more, line breeding and in breeding on her petigree than many of the petigrees that I have seen with NI...and many of her family members have gone on to be show champions with lots of litters. Not that I am okay with this, but it is something that is widely used in the dog world and not necessarily something horrible, as long as research is done. I was watching Dogs 101 the other day and it was saying that Shih Tzus (sp?) are all the decendants of (i think) 10/15 females and 10/15 males...i bet that those hundreds of years ago they were oh-so-careful about which lines and whose mom was whose sister, and they seem to have turned out fine (if you like that sort of thing, no offense ment...) But it just goes to show you that, with careful planning for the future, it will all turn out okay...
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Lol - you say you wouldn't want a 'mixed NI' - but thats exactly what NIs are - a mix of several breeds.
Sansorrella

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Sandra

#50 Feb 14, 2009

Jem said: ↑

But if NI's are all so ill etc why breed from them???

It makes no sense as all you are doing is bringing more dogs into the mix, if you 100% honestly believe they are ill then DONT BREED THEM WITH ANYTHING!!!

My good god how is this not sinking in?
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Try reading the articles on my website regarding genetics, breeding and relative risk.
Sansorrella

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Sandra

#51 Feb 14, 2009

I am reading an awful lot about ££££££ and breeders just in it for the money.

ok, there are a few commercial breeders, as in all breeds, but in all the years I have been breeding I have yet to make a profit - on most litters you are very lucky to break even - and if there is a slight profit it gets ploughed back into the dogs.

Marie - tell me - have you made a profit from your dogs yet?
Cheyenne

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Marie

#52 Feb 14, 2009

Not a penny!

Thats why I get annoyed when people tell me I'm only in it for the money.
Jem New Member

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Jemma

#53 Feb 14, 2009

Sansorrella said: ↑

Try reading the articles on my website regarding genetics, breeding and relative risk.
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It's a money making scheme and the dogs suffer for it, if you and marie havn't made a profit (highly unlikey but never mind ) im sure you will when u start crossing them with whatever you can find that fits at the time
Jem New Member

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Jemma

#54 Feb 14, 2009

Cheyenne said: ↑

Not a penny!

Thats why I get annoyed when people tell me I'm only in it for the money.
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You cant be in it for the love of the dogs though otherwise you wouldn't rehome them when u no longer have use for them and you certainly wouldn't be using a bitch that may have epilepsy!
Cheyenne

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Marie

#55 Feb 14, 2009

Jem said: ↑

You cant be in it for the love of the dogs though otherwise you wouldn't rehome them when u no longer have use for them and you certainly wouldn't be using a bitch that may have epilepsy!
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For the last time, I did NOT re-home her cos she was no longer of use! Both her and Nanuq wanted to be the Alpha bitch, they were fighting and it was too dangerous to both them and my daughter to allow it to continue. I did what I thought was right for her and my other dogs, and she is a very happy dog for it.

Nanuq dose not have epilepsy and there is no "may have" either!

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Louise13 New Member

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Louise

#56 Feb 14, 2009

Borderdawn said: ↑

Patchy coats is not an illness!! Its purely and utterly breeding for the sake of it and in no way at all benefitting the type of dog! If its classed as a fault, it should not be bred from, how on earth would you hope to improve these dogs when you keep breeding from substandard animals?
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Duhh..you just use a good stud dog..they solve EVERYTHING!!
Jem New Member

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Jemma

#57 Feb 14, 2009

Cheyenne said: ↑

For the last time, I did NOT re-home her cos she was no longer of use! Both her and Nanuq wanted to be the Alpha bitch, they were fighting and it was too dangerous to both them and my daughter to allow it to continue. I did what I thought was right for her and my other dogs, and she is a very happy dog for it.

Nanuq dose not have epilepsy and there is no "may have" either!
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My 2 fight for Alpha status when 1 is coming into season BUT I got a lot of advice for it and now my girls get on fine and are both being spayed in 3/4 weeks hopefully so whats ur excuse exactly?

I understand you have a daughter but with training and getting one or both spayed you could have sorted this, and not rehomed one, its easy when dogs are such a commodity though
Borderdawn New Member

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Dawn

#58 Feb 14, 2009

Louise13 said: ↑

Duhh..you just use a good stud dog..they solve EVERYTHING!!
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Silly me, I forgot.....................AGAIN!
Louise13 New Member

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Louise

#59 Feb 14, 2009

Borderdawn said: ↑

Silly me, I forgot.....................AGAIN!
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yeah they decide whether the coat is patchy and if they aren't patchy then they won't produce patchys..but you need to know your lines!! or the ones made up for that dog..

Of course if they have good hipscores then thats fine if the bitches dont..in fact don't even score the bitches its just extra cost!!They must have good hips cos they spend all day on their back legs trying to see out of kennels
werewolf Member

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private

#60 Feb 14, 2009

Cheyenne said: ↑

For the last time, I did NOT re-home her cos she was no longer of use! Both her and Nanuq wanted to be the Alpha bitch, they were fighting and it was too dangerous to both them and my daughter to allow it to continue. I did what I thought was right for her and my other dogs, and she is a very happy dog for it.

Nanuq dose not have epilepsy and there is no "may have" either!
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Just incase anyone wonders why there is a ? over Nanuq ref epilepsy, her owner Cheyenne, suggested that Nanuq's sire is a carrier, this resulted in the below post no 91:

http://www.dogsey.com/showthread.php?t=95369&page=10

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