If NI are so unhealthy................... Discussions

& no line is without a problem, why are so many 'breeders' using them to outcross?

Money money money (abba soundtrack) x

Surely said breeders are going to have to say the NI they have is healthy before breeding, that being the case the lines that the NI is from should be posted for all to see. Dont you think?

This is a question i have asked time and time again. Why do some people seem to think the NI is a time bomb but are happy to still play in the dark with said time bomb and cross. Just crossing a dog with another breed doesn't mean they are automatically going to be a lot healthier.

So i have come to the conculsion that they are either A) Lying to justify the crossing and to sell the pups they are going to produce or B) really don't have a clue what they are doing and have taken a small amount of info and run with it. Either one is not good

Some inherited diseases will not become apparent untill later life, too late then, bred from, used at stud and passed it on, most times including that animal aswell!

Not sure of the context of this or how it relates to my post which you have quoted???

Let me explain.

You commented on them being bombs waiting to go off, yet will be bred from. I am saying I would imagine the breeders who are crossbreeding these dogs are using what are apparently healthy (at this time) animals. However, it goes for ALL animals when I said that some diseases will not become apparent untill later life, by which time its too late if they have been bred from, the disease is passed on. Many Epileptic dogs dont become symptomatic untill 4yrs or older, likewise Addisons affected dogs.

I dont think any dogs should be crossbred at all, (allowing for Lurchers in some instances, although not completely necessary) I dont agree with the Wolfdog cross business and I think using an NI is ridiculous!

If the NI's are so unhealthy and you hand on heart believe this then dont breed them weither they are being out crossed or not.
It's not hard its just common sense but then the money must be very appealing after all you end up with a litter of 10 at say £750 a litter your laughing.
It disgusts me and is so hypocritical the goal posts are always moved to suit.

Ahhr ok i get it now . . .

My point was though that certain people think that ALL NI are inherrently unhealthy and carry these types of disease so symptomatic or not they are not healthy. Thats why i don understand why the same people think this will go away by cross breeding . . .

Well I cant answer that for you Razcox.

so what breeders are using them to 'outcross' then?

Well that would be sansorella, cheyenne, shoshone and cry wolf and others.

The reason inbreeding has negative effects is due to increased likelihood that a dog will inherit two of the same recessive genes, these may be disease genes, or genes for another trait (i.e. traits characteristic of a breed, such as coat colour or conformation). This is well documented. Outtbreeding, by contrast (ie. putting an NI to another breed) means that the parents are less likely to share genes and therefore less likely to contribute two of the same recessive alleles of a gene (so are less likely to suffer from inherited conditions).

So to summarise, the point of outcrossing is to improve genetic diversity with the hope of making breeds as a whole, more healthy. People who are using NIs and outcrossing to other breeds are probably doing it because they, like you, love the breed, and are seeking to improve it - it's not really a question of 'if they are so unhealthy, why are they using them?'. I hope this answers the question somewhat; if not, just read up on population genetics, and it will definitely be explained better! It's a brilliant thing to be doing, and I believe that other pedigree dog breeds would benefit from a bit of outcrossing here and there.

Hmmm i see your point but its still irrelevant IF all lines are unhealthy. One should not be breeding unhealthy dogs full stop, you just have to call it a day no matter how much you like the 'breed'.

Personally i dont think they are ALL unhealthy.

TBH, there's no way anyone can really say much about lines, as the pedigrees are such a mess. Still, I don't think anyone is saying NIs are a lost cause anyway - things can be done ie. outbreeding. I agree - people shouldn't be breeding from outwardly unhealthy dogs, but even dogs that appear healthy, could lack genetic diversity, and in that case, outbreeding would be a really positive thing to do.

I also believe that it is about financial gain. One must remember that some of these breeders have shown how unethical they are ref their breeding practices, if they were decent, genuine, dog lovers, who bred for the right reasons in the first place, then I could possibly buy the idea of their outcrossing to improve the breed, but due to certain track records, of course the only conclusion is MONEY!

I'm afraid I don't really know all the background stuff/breeders involved so I couldn't really say. I hear what you're saying though: people could be paying a lip service, saying they're doing things for the breed (and potential puppy owners), but in actual fact, not helping at all. If outcrossing is to help the NI, I'd imagine there is a lot of research to be done, and that, as with anything involving breeding, it shouldn't be taken lightly.

BUt then the same can be said for the patchy coats etc..they use an excuse..so the health thing is just another excuse..if the s*it hits the fan they can say they didn't know..oops sorry..oh well.. we will just try another mating with a different stud..

They seem to think the stud is the be all and end all..

If the stud seems healthy and isn't patchy etc then it doen'st matter about the bitch cos the stud will overrule everything!!! WRONG!!!

Defo. The overriding theme seems to be too much haste and lack of research and planning. And this whole outcrossing thing - I do wonder whether breeders doing this have actually spoken to geneticists, done loads of background reading and put comprehensive breeding plans in place, or whether they're just sticking two dogs together and hoping for the best!

I can see why outcrossing would be beneficial...to a degree....but it would require everyone's participation and a fully defined plan of action...not just a small handful of people, because in the big scheme of things, they are just going to be adding to the amount of dogs that need homes, and not really contributing to the breed except for their personal breeding stock and a gimmick for selling pups...From all of my research (on every site...and every point of view) is that NIDs do not need outcrossing...just a better plan for the future to make sure that line breeding is limited. The amount of unhealthy dogs doesn't seem all that much when considering how many NIDs there are. Naturally, we hear the horror stories because those are the people going online to get more information/support or trying to warn others of bad breeders. Many “success stories” are those that you only hear from owners that don’t need to bother with online forums...for some of us, it’s hard to imagine life without our dog forums…but for many others, it’s a waste of time when they have other things happening in their lives.

I don’t really frequent the forum very much, but the British Utonagan Association has a plan for outcrossing their dogs, but it is a collective effort...not just a random breeder here or there….and they have a fully defined plan…starting with “who will be the ‘founding dogs’?” “Who will they be put to...” “how will an outcrossing be approved?” and so on. I think it’s pretty impressive and hope that they succeed to their ends.