100% Wolf X Dog Controversial

Not sure why anyone shouldn't buy Appaloosa horses !

Hi Hollieandmum.
Do you have an interest in Wolfdogs?

I do in that even as a child, it struck me how like wolves Alsatians were, as they were known as back then. I have never own one, but think they are beautiful dogs. I was very interested to learn completely by chance on this site about the history of the German Wolf Dog, as it used to be known, and Hektor, one of the early founders of the breed beloning to Von Stephanitz who was a quarter wolf I believe. I understand that just after the second World War wolf was reintroduced because the recently renamed Alsatian (anything with the word German in it not being too popular I guess in GB after the war) was becoming too aggressive, too bold, and some more wolf input was needed to quieten things down a bit.

There is a very informative article on wolfdogs on the Wolf Park site. It's under Wolf Hybrids / Wolf Park's Position on Wolfdogs.

I think there's a link to that on this thread somewhere.

I'll google it, thanks Eko

Adrian Wydeven, Certified Wildlife Biologist, and Wolf Biologist for the Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources since 1990.


I am troubled by work done by Shaun Ellis and presenting it as research. He is a bit of showman and knows how to capture the interest of the media. I have not seen any scientific papers produced by him. It seems when you are living amongst a bunch of wolf pups and observing their behavior, one may learn some interesting behaviors, but from animals raised by people, hardly tells us much about wolf behavior in the wild . A lot of people have observed wolves in captivity and several have raised pups to adulthood, and reported on the pup growth and development. Shaun's work is not that different, and I am not sure living right with the wolves adds that much insight. Living this close probably alters the behavior of the wolves and reduces the objectivity of the observer. It also is difficult to keep careful notes or keep other records unless he has others keeping film of all his interactions. I don't think Shaun will contribute much to wolf research or conservation, and he may instill some incorrect concepts. Living too close to large wild predators can be dangerous, and is not totally respectful of these animals. Watching them from a distance and giving them space is more respectful. We don't need to share a meal with these predators to learn how to conserve them.

I hear what you're saying, but I am always interested by people who walk off the path of life, and choose to make their own. I am fascinated by what he has achieved, and in particular his work with wild wolves in the States. i will have to google this because I can't remember my facts on this one.

I will be back ! Very interesting discussion.

Monty Sloan, Wolf Park, Battle Ground, IN 47920

I have been working with captive socialized wolves since 1984. Unlike Mr. Ellis, I have also networked with many wolf biologists from around the world, attended wolf conferences since 1987, presented lectures and posters on wolf behavior and have a good understanding of the scientific literature of wolves. I have also learned quite a lot directly from the wolves, my relationship is all based on trust and rewarding wolves to exhibit behavior that makes them easier to manage in a captive setting and very safe and very enjoyable to work around.

In 2005, I was contacted by Stone Castle Graphics, a small company in the UK which was working on a series of coffee table books on animals. They had completed The Spirit of the Horse and were working on their second book The Spirit of the Wolf. Initially they just wanted to use some of my photos, but in the end they decided to use my work exclusively. I was interested in who was writing the book, but they were not initially forthcoming. When I was finally told it was Shawn Ellis, the name meant nothing to me as he was not in the scientific wolf biology circles I was familiar with.

I offered to help with the text, but in the end I had no ability to change text – in fact I did not see a manuscript until two weeks before the book went to the publisher which was a shame because much of which was so obviously incorrect. I never worked with the publisher, and I never had any contact whatsoever with Mr. Ellis. Mind you they assured me the book would be mostly photos and lite on text, and it was. Also, they had a BBC Wildlife editor so I felt comfortable with the project. Also, since it was only a coffee table book, and over all these books just contain the same old generic, but generally not terribly inaccurate information, I was not terribly concerned. Was I ever wrong... When I contacted them about the inaccuracies, even the folks at Stone Castle Graphics had concerns and the Editor apparently tossed out a LOT. They assured me it would be OK because nobody ever reads these anyway…. What started as a great project for my photographic career, ended up as an embarrassment… I have never sold a single copy of the book, gave the all ones I received from the publisher to friends as gag gifts and the copy I have was given to me from a friend in The Netherlands. It is in Dutch so nobody here can read the text. Sigh.

Then there was the National Geographic Special. It was so bad and so full of the same misinformation -- it like a bad movie, so bad it’s funny. I must say I really felt bad for Doug Smith. He is a friend of mine and working for the Government, he had no choice but keep his mouth shut and be nice. He got a LOT of flack for that show. Doug and I were able to commiserate – me the Book he the TV show…

Now there is the Animal Planet special. With each step, things seem to be going from bad to worse… So much of how he handles the wolves and what he says about handling the wolves is so very incorrect. We can do so much more with our wolves, as can many of our colleagues at other facilities, than he can with his. Our entire approach is to establish good relationships with the wolves – not aggressive based relations, but relationships based on positive rewards and positive interactions. Size, strength, physical abilities, how you smell, what you eat (the wolves could care less if you were a vegan – what’s up with eating organ meat?) all are meaningless in comparison to a good working relationship with an animal.

What all this boils down to is he is a good showman, obviously does care a lot for wolves, but does sensational things with his wolves and has a nack of doing weird and completely unnecessary things. He also promotes himself as an ‘expert’ and the only one who can live with wolves. That makes for good TV ratings, but in reality there are hundreds of people out there who can and do far more with wolves than he ever has with captive wolves.

After watching the National Geographic special I wondered what would happen if he were to go in with our wolves (who safely meet hundreds every year), but I would never want to subject any of our wolves to somebody who acts so inappropriately, and so rudely, around them.

One of my coworkers here likes to say that he is trying to reinvent the wheel, and that it is a pity, since he has the time and the passion that he has not really hooked up with wolf researchers; they could have told him that wheels are most effective when they are circular rather than three or five-sided.

Monty Sloan

Wolf Photographer
www.wolfpark.org
www.wolfphotography.com
www.wolfpaper.pl

Yes, I thought my memory was correct, he lived for several years with the Nez Pearce indians who taught him "wolf speak". His target audience were wild wolves. I think his approach of living with wolves, whether they be wild or his more "tame" Coombe Martin wolves, must be the most valuable sort of research he could possibly do. Far better than observing them from a distance, just like every other scientific researcher. He is attempting to really get into the heads of wolves by doing everything he possibly can to become one. This isn't possible of course, but wolves being the wonderful, gentle, sociable creatures that they are will and have and did accept him into their pack.

I think his work is invaluable, showing people who mistakingly think that wolves will eat your baby and are wild, savage man eaters to be so wrong.

Do you think letting siblings mate is a good thing then, I mean normal or natural? How do you personally see that mingling with wild animals is the best way to observe them naturally, when observing them from a distance, IMO will be the best way to see natural and unmeddled with behaviour?

No I do not, it would probably never happen in a wolf pack, wild or captive. I always think that hands on is far better than observance, whether it be near or far. And by ingratiating himself with a pack of wild wolves IMO is not meddling, just the opposite. The word "meddling" would be better applied to having captive wolves in the first place. Now that could definitely be described as meddling, but meddling for the greater good of wild wolves I would add.

I'm in the middle of watching a Queen concert, so will have to go, but thanks for a very interesting start to a good debate ! Perhaps we can pick up where we left off another time !

Lol! The people who have the dogs he bred and who have visited cry-wolf tend to stand up for him, the ones who have never seen one of his dogs and who have never been there slag him off. Funny, that...

I'm under no one's spell - but I do find the dogs enchanting.

Hi Golden wolf
I do not have one of Charlie's dogs, i have not visited his kennels. I do not see anywhere i have slagged him off. Please dont tar everyone with the same brush.

Hi Liz. I don't suggest you have. I responded specifically to the 'point' raised in the quote in my post.

Tazer,

Pics of Genova as requested, took these today and her summer coat is now through

A long term study on Algonquin wolves in Canada concluded that close family matings were not uncommon, that inter-pack relations also happened; that is one female was tracked moving across 3 different packs but it was tolerated (conclusion of the scientists) because of her being related to pack members.

The difficulties observing wild wolves are huge. much data comes from GPS collars which can tell who is where and when, or DNA tests on captured or dead animals. An ordinary captive pack will not 'behave' in a normal manner. Shaun Ellis has tried to break down the human/wolf barrier and observe behaviour from inside. To do this he has felt it necessary to do things others consider un-savory. I can see how he might learn something new.

Haven't seen the first episode of his latest TV prog, but I think the other is tonight so hope to catch that.

Navajo,

Who are Genovas parents as a matter of interest? Is she quite a small bitch (about 60+ cms)? Just curious.