100% Wolf X Dog Controversial

Small minded? Dont think so, but if it pleases you, then thats fine Small minded are those that follow animal abusers and allow dictation by them. My point about Ian Taylor, does that not concern you about what he wrote, it MUST be the truth surely? Yet people cannot view it any longer, shame that

You know what? I bet something "new" happens every day, but there is enough in the past to taint the breed as it is, nothing new will ever be required, however Im sure some little "gem" will pop up soon, they always do.

Now, Ill be back later if you'd like to continue, but I have a bitch to mate, one of the correct colour too!! Not pale, dark, patchy or anything else, of the correct breed standard colour! After all, how can any breed progress if you breed from none standard colours, and animals with no health testing?

I must say though, I meant not to offend you, but I really do find it pathetic that people defend those who abuse animals. Maybe thats my "small mind" I need to allow for such people because its in the past, as you said? I forgive Karen Matthews already!!!!

I agree Sutty, but even after she knew what she had done she supported her, thats wrong. I cant comment on TIDA I honestly have no clue about the club at all whatsoever, but I do know that if people abuse animals they should be rejected from any animal society and not supported by others, my feelings anyway.

Do I give the impression I'm interested in your private life?

Don't bother dear, I'm about through with your tiny little world of vindictiveness.


Arthur

At least she made the effort!!

What the hell has all this tittle tattle he said, she said got to do with the thread?

................when Arthur joined and as we are beginning to learn Arthur like a ruck

... I think "not suffering fools gladly" may be more the term you're looking for here

I did ask earlier (above) that we letthis thread go back to the original posters/topic but the pointless and inane NI-thumpers refuse to let go of their little rag doll.

Arthur

Arthur may well have his head in the sand but he's most certainly not the only one in this thread spitting the dummy.



(Sorry Scot term for a temper tantrum incase it confused anyone.)

You need to take yourself off to the relaxation thread and have a bit of Indian Head massage Ommmmmmmmmmmmmmm;-)

As do a few others.

I'm cool, but I think I'd rather have my head in the sand than where some here seem to have theirs...


Arthur

Yeah that far up a certain woman's posterior can't be good

Oh dear, I touched a nerve, they do say the truth hurts, but dont worry if Shila has Mahlek in her (which she does) JK will "allow" you to mate her and suggest a stud dog! and you'll do exactly as she says, as do alllllllll the others....!!

Not just a Scot term, commonly used round here to.

Now can we try to get back on topic.

I haven't had chance to read all this thread - but why would people want to cross an existing wolfdog breed with wolves? Its madness (and illegal) other than F3 so where do all the F1 and F2's go?

From wolf park.


points below:



1. Wolves and high-content wolf hybrids should never be regarded as pets. If kept in captivity, whether in zoos, wildlife parks, or by private persons, they should be maintained so as to meet certain minimum standards in keeping with their psychological and physical well-being.

1. The wolves should be hand-raised from before the age of 14 days (no later than 21 days), to insure that they are properly socialized to people. The pups need to be isolated from adult canines except for brief visits (less than a few hours per week) for the first four months of life to properly bond with humans. They do, however, need some contact with other canines, or should be raised together in pairs or as a litter to prevent them from fully imprinting on people. If this is not done, they will be flighty and hard to handle, especially for medical treatment, for the rest of their lives. This will result in considerable behavioral stress for the animals even during routine medical care.

2. There should be at least two animals raised together. Being highly social animals, they need companions of their own species. Wolves and hybrids raised in isolation from their own kind often display a variety of behavioral problems and abnormalities.

3. They should be housed in large enclosure which is made from 8 ft. or higher 11 guage chain link + overhang and skirting with a minimum of 1600 sq. ft. of floor space. The animals should be fed a proper meat diet, including bones, skin, and/or fur. (For details, see Klinghammer and Goodmann, "Socialization and Management of Wolves in Captivity" in Frank, Ed (1987) Man and Wolf. Dr. W. Junk Publishers, Dordrecht, The Netherlands.)

4. The human caretakers should make a commitment to the animals for the entire life span of the animals. There should be more than one experienced person who is accepted by the animals involved in caring for them. Adequate provisions for proper psychological and physical care in case of the owner's or owners' death should be made.

5. The attending veterinarian should be familiar with the proper handling of wolves. If a veterinarian does not have this experience, reference should be made to Albert, Goodmann, and Klinghammer, "Health Care of Wolves in Captivity" in Frank, H. Ed. (1987) Man and Wolf.

6. Prospective owners of wolves or hybrids in captivity should first obtain any necessary permits. They should also try to obtain some verification from qualified persons that the animals were, in fact, properly represented and not just mixed-breed dogs.

7. The prospective owners should review the pertinent literature on the behavior and ecology of wolves and speak to as many wolf owners as possible. They should also read as much factual information as possible, such as the "Wolf Management Chapter" by Klinghammer and Goodmann (1985), and obtain subscriptions to one of the wolf hybrid publications such as those published by the Iowolfers Association. They should also try to gain hands-on experience with pure wolves and, better yet, attend one of the Wolf Behavior Seminars offered three times a year by the Institute of Ethology at Wolf Park, before they acquire the animals.

2. Adequate facilities, which are expensive, should be ready when the animals arrive. Neighbors should be consulted *prior* to the acquisition of the animals. Wolves should NEVER be kept in a city, town, or housing development. THEY SHOULD NEVER BE KEPT ON A CHAIN IN A YARD OR BEHIND AN ELECTRONIC FENCE AS THE SOLE MEANS OF CONTAINMENT. Children below the age or size of a typical 14 year old, including the owner's, are always potentially in danger. There should be a perimeter fence, tall enough to prevent contact by people, especially children who might get bitten through the fence.

3. Wolf-dog hybrids should, for safety reasons, essentially be kept like wolves as outlined above. While low percentage wolf-dog hybrids may be unlike pure wolves in many respects, and many can and are kept like pure dogs, they all retain, *as do many dogs*, the motivation for predatory behavior. This means that a person, especially a child who tripped and fell, or who is moaning, crying, or screaming, may be considered wounded prey and attacked. Grave injuries, even death, are all too frequent in such cases.

Socialized wolves or wolf-dog hybrids may also challenge the owner or others for dominance. This, too, can result in serious injury to the persons involved. Tame wolves or wolf-dog hybrids may also defend their food against people, especially children. A mere defensive bite can result in serious injuries, even though the animal "meant" no harm.

Of important consideration for those instances where pet wolves or wolf-dog hybrids do bite a person:

1. Unlike most cases involving dogs, wolves and hybrids are almost invariably killed immediately for rabies testing. Although there is substantial circumstantial evidence for the effectiveness of rabies vaccines on wolves and their hybrids, there is no legally accepted vaccine for wolves.

2. The excessive media coverage which follows bites by pet wolves and hybrids only gives wolves a bad reputation. When a pet dog injures or kills a child, bad publicity stops at the breed involved, but when a wolf-dog hybrid does the same thing, the image of an entire endangered species suffers.

3. The proper conditions for maintaining wolves or wolf-dog hybrids safely in captivity are often not met. With respect to the psychological well-being of wolves, even many zoos do not meet optimal conditions for proper handling and care.

The opinions expressed here are designed to:

1. protect human life and health and,
2. maintain the animals in good psychological and physical condition.

4. Finally, animals kept in captivity should be considered as ambassadors of their species, and the owners should educate the public about wolves -- especially their plight in the wild. It is easy to see that to maintain wolves in captivity requires exceptional dedication, financial resources, proper education and training.

Culled?
Sold to unsuspecting members of the public?
Sold to other breeders?
Just my thoughts.

I can see reasons for and against it

For

This is how the Saarloos was created as a breed, Saarloos started with his breeding programme in the 1920's crossing wolf with GSD. To improve his lines another wolf mating took place in the 1960's. IMO This is how the breed was developed and if the wolf mating had not taken place in 1963 perhaps the breed would not be as healthy as it is today.

Against

Illegal to own F1 and F2 hybrids without a DWA licence, so these would need to be culled unless the breeder could keep all the offspring

The hybrids not kept for use in the breeding programme could become sought after by people looking for the next macho pitbull replacement

The Saarloos and Czech are established breeds of dog

What I don't get, is how this new British saarloos is going to be better as a working dog than the saarloos we have now, which has been established wasn't that good a working dog anyway. I just don't see how crossing it back with wolves will benafit it in that area. I know that it has been stated that these animals can be more intune with their owners, but, what good is that if the animal is to shy of new people/environments to do its job. I wouldn't mind being proven wrong though.

Ref the unsuitable ones, there is only so much space a person can have, once that is full then I don't know.