100% Wolf X Dog Controversial

That is a very good question. My first reaction is to be protective and say that I don't like it. But too put it in context and be more objective one has too look at what the results would be.

I have owned Saarloos for a while and know a few breeders of them and of CWD. A few years ago someone bred some Saarloos x CWD in France and they were met with condemnation but more interestingly the pups were impossible to sell. It seems that people here are not so interested in cross breeding or would not be prepared to take on (or pay for) one. There is also a potential legal implication as well; since the wave of Breed Specific Legislation that swept across Europe in the late 90's cross breds of some breeds actually have less 'rights' than a registered pedigree, i.e. a staffy type dog might be illegal but a registered pedigree one would be able to be owned with conditions (just an example). The keeping of hybrids for wolves and dogs is strictly controlled and it is incredibly hard and expensive to get a licence. CWD are currently considered pedigree dogs and need no licencing whatsoever. Also to get a pedigree for a dog here, the animal has to have papers from the breeder and then has to be 'inspected' and pass a test, including temperament after it is a year old to ensure that it conforms to the breed standard. Sorry but no KC certificate in the post.

I have met quite a few NIs, NI x Saarloos and NI x CWD and a Tamaskan. I thought many of the NIs were striking dogs and all friendly. The Tamaskan was also a friendly active dog and I was forced to admit that the Saarloos and CWD crosses were also very friendly dogs, so I would deduce that these crosses may have many benefits to the ordinary dog owner in that they MAY not have the difficult temperaments that their pedigree cousins have. I am not sure about health benefits at all as there do seen genuine problems in the NI, so on this alone I would not breed them.

As for crossing the CWD and Saarloos. These animals have different characters and I would be concerned that you could very easily breed a litter that contains animals that are very, very difficult. I think the reason that people do this sort of cross breeding is really just an ego trip as I can see no useful purpose.

Wolf dogs are difficult to live with, no body who has lived with one for several years will deny this. By comparison all the Rottweillers (originally bred as a working dog) I have met have been docile and easy to live with, yet look at what bad press they get worldwide.

I would do if they were crossed with Wolves now yes Martin.

I have absolutely NO problem with the Czech Wolfdog nore the Saarloos Wolfdog, in fact I really like the Saarloos, its the crosbreeding with wild animals I have the issue with.

Agreee with this. In my oppinion, a well balanced post.

Thank you.

Totally random but my dogs ate a kebab out the bucket & the farts in here are about knocking me out.

Coffee spat out at computer screen again Nothing worse than 'kebab bum'. Hope the air is clearer now

Out of curiosity, when would you say your breed became a breed?

OK then... let's hear it. And we also need a full police report on all of those breeders too.

JK is just one person - even if there were 10 with the same record, they would still be only individuals. You people need to get *off* individual cases and look at the bigger picture now... get current! OK, JK has convictions but they were in the past - can you prove in any way she has not changed at all? Jeez - the prodigal son would get the door slammed in his face at your houses! You may all blame the ills of the breed on her but she makes an easy target because she's set herself up as a figurehead and so you all get to pop at her. There are many other illicit and immoral breeders having NIx (and other breed) litters purely for the money *now*, not in some distant past - and don't come the old "my stud, I want a puppy from the litter to sell and make lots of money" stuff either - that was pretty much standard practise 20 years ago (and before then and after then) - across all breeds!

Right now, decent NI breeders *are* health-checking and history-checking before breeding, those that aren't will *not* have registered litters (the same as in any other breed, recognised or not).

Arthur

Hi Arthur
I think in all fairness the NIS sets itself up to be slammed. Looking at the new breed standard shows quite clearly they know little about the conformation of a dog.
Then they go & set up a stud dog page but miss out very important information eg: hip scores, dates of birth ect & to cap it all dont show pedigree's of the dogs so how will anyone looking for a stud know if the dogs are closely related? I could be wrong here but did Ammik not sire Storm who sired Snow bear? Raven i think sired Nookie, and Nookie sired Quimiq? If all that is correct these dogs are very closely related, does that not concern you?

It's a dating page - if you want more info you contact the owner of the dog. I think the fact that this stud page is in plain public view speaks volumes for the current NIS. Very few breed stud websites show pedigrees (and besides, NI's can't *have* pedigrees can they?) - this " Boasting an excellent ancestry of champions and field trial winners with his Grandfather coming 3rd at Cruffs in 1998." is the sort of thing you get, any more nebulous and it would waft away on the lightest breeze!

Again though, you quote individuals and again, I say look at the larger picture where more discerning breeders are trying to do the right thing here.

Arthur

PS - Again, I point you to the lineage of the Shire Horse. *Concentrated, Prolonged and Purposeful* inbreeding of sibling to sibling in an out and out attempt to create something that did not exist before... accepted then and accepted now! Why not go pillory the owners of these horses then? Tell them to stop breeding their animals... I wonder where that will get you?



Arthur

I dont think there is any need for that, i was simply pointing something out to you in a debate in a polite manner.
I do believe there are many NI owners who are doing the right thing or trying too & i love the look of the dogs. I would love to see them carry on so there's no need to be so defensive. Also this thread is about wolfdogs not shire horses, if i had an interest in horses Arthur i can assure you i most certainly would ask questions about them.

are you not at all concerned that so many NI stud dogs are related to each other? or why 2 dogs have no hip score results shown? is this OK with you

More "individuals" and "friends" of JK, breedng the NI.

http://www.thisisgloucestershire.co...ilth-RSPCA/article-214525-detail/article.html

http://www.wag-ayrshire.org.uk/images/latestnews/carlylestandard1.png

http://www.wag-ayrshire.org.uk/images/latestnews/hillbanknewresident2.png

http://www.oldham.gov.uk/print/view_press_release.htm?refno=MS/PR/CE/213/06

First three are the same woman! That and a bad smell is the best you can do? And Utes, not NIs? (Yes, I know, but not NIS dogs)? And where did they state friends of JK incidentally?

I could probably do better myself if I wanted to discredit NIs

Do try harder!


Arthur

I have no need nor inclination to try harder Arthur, Id rather not have to read such disgraceful conduct by ANY animal "lover" They are friends of Julie Kelham, she even said on here (if you care to look "harder" ) that her "friends" were having issues with the EHO, and that was the "Shadowlands" McKenzie Hawkins. Yes, the first three are the same person, but if you read, 3 very different stories, and yes a friend of Julie Kelham again, even asking people not to speak ill of her to the press is asked as she is a "good sort really."

I despair at the type of people some associate themselves with, must be very desperate for some reason I think. Did she tell you you can have a litter from Shila yet? It will be fne she said you "must know your lines" when breeding from patchy or wrong colours, shame she got it wrong on so many occasions though eh?

But still the same person... some people are small-minded are they not?

If you are a member of the NIS, or indeed know someone that is, then you will know that Shila is not patchy, though maybe a little light - but given the GSD in the breed, not surprising. The fact that you *can* read the members section also says something does it not?

So, Shadowlands has a smell? From dogs no less? Prove it was the dogs then... the article states "... from a number of dogs and other animals... "

Arthur

You are pathetic Arthur, and its all "public" on the NIS site, except the (secret ) bits they quickly delete (like breeding from puppies with bad backs) and a few other things, namely health issues and people asking questions. They had to open it again because of all their "loyal" supporters coming out and being horrified at what they were reading. the "cant view section" isnt very tightly secure either Im told, but thats because of the "loyal" followers.....!!

I think I know enough about the people in charge of what goes on in the NIS, their breeding practices, ethics and morals thanks, even Ian Taylor left, what an enlightening (and disgraceful) story he told of JK or perhaps he made it up? Wouldnt look in good light for his partner though would it if he was? Oh, you wont be able to read that Arthur, it got deleted!!!

You stick with 'em kid!!!

I bet Jk is crushed at "using" Dogweb (as it was then) to promote the NI, look what happened when people who actually care about dogs found out about it all!!

Fine - personal attacks, in public, are rather ill-considered I find... especially against me. Say what the hell you want about the NI - both people and breed - and I will discuss. Start calling me pathetic and I will retalliate.

I may have said before - you are clearly a petty and small-minded person with some sort of axe to grind and the more you pontificate the more you will be ridiculed. The "Make up some questions" issue is well-known, as are the reasons behind it... if you have something *new* to bring to this then do please step up to the mark, but otherwise I suggest you butt out and leave this thread to the topic that those that originally started it wanted to discuss.

Arthur

PS -

"PS - Again, I point you to the lineage of the Shire Horse. *Concentrated, Prolonged and Purposeful* inbreeding of sibling to sibling in an out and out attempt to create something that did not exist before... accepted then and accepted now! Why not go pillory the owners of these horses then? Tell them to stop breeding their animals... I wonder where that will get you?"


I know the address of a good optician...

Arthur

Oops - double post

In all fairness Dawn, Julie wasnt the only one to be taken in by Nadia Carlyle, I suspect a lot of Ute folk were too, as for the other, the committee took steps to sort that out, the person in question then registered with TIDA who were still under SC and gladly accepted her.