From Northern and Midland Counties Beagle Club. Which re-iterates my point about the KC ABS, means diddly squat! http://www.nmcbc.co.uk/Beagle Profile.htm To be perfectly honest there is a distinct lack of any health pages on most of the BEagle club sites which is a shame. The only time any breed will do compulay or regular screening is if enough BREEDERS take the initive and start doing it, publishing hip scores and making a database. Thats how it needs to be addressed not dismissing it as not as big as other breeds. If breeders dont take a step towards eradication then how can things improve? The BVA stats as Nov last year: Out of just 41 Beagles hip scored, the lowest score was 10 and the highest 71, giving a mean average of 22. That cant really be seen as a good score for a small working Hound breed IMO, but that just me. Id of expected a mean of possibly below 10. You said you know of just one Beagle with hip dysplasia, isnt that enough, I mean how many do you personally know of? I can honestly say I know of about 20-30 personally from boarding them, some of them may have other issues to those I have spoke of, I know one has a nasty skin irritation akin to that of an allergy, I didnt see that as a problem within the breed, but if it were a Westie I may of mentioned it. I think we both want the same thing, but in different ways, I speak as I find, I see owners devestated by illness in their pets on a regular basis, when these animals come from top respected breeders and the problems the owners themselves research further proves to be more widespread, then I will get cross and I will ask questions. I would be elated to hear of a health issue free breed, I doubt we will see it though, but the fact remains BREEDERS are the key, if they start the scoring and only use good scores progress will be made. The dog you know of with HD must of been xrayed for the owner to know it was there? Why xray a dog for no reason, surely there was a need to xray its hips? Even if it were rountine scoring (which you didnt say) there is absolutely no way you will know how that dog will be in its older years, many are crippled with arthritis, Im hope that dog isnt the same.
so 41 dogs being scored is a tiny amount, I agree the BMA is high... rottweilers BMA is 14, given this is a large breed with a history of HD I would have thought beagles would have been well below
Me personally knowing of 3 dogs with serious health issues from well respected breeders is also a large amount when you put it into perspective.
Borderdawn, as you've discovered in your research the Beagle breed clubs in the UK only report 'occasional instances' of three conditions in the breed - not the problem with jaw or heart that you thought was most prevelant in the breed. So your experience isn't typical of reported problems. I mix in Beagle circles and we do know an awful lot of Beagles and we hear all the gossip - we have a friend that breeds beagles and her primary goal is to breed healthy dogs that make great pets - she isn't interested in showing. She researches the health of the breed at length and has very strong feelings about it. She is very concerned that the breed doesn't become unhealthy and feels that it can be improved, but her findings are that the breed is currently pretty healthy. I know perhaps 50 beagles well, but hear about hundreds. I'm aware of a few instances of epillepsy in a particular line (I know a lot about this because my breeder friend has a dog that developed the condition a couple of months ago - aged 5 years). Unfortunatly a particular dog with the condition was used for stud before he developed the problem and all cases that she managed to track down could be traced back to him. But other than in descendants of that particular dog I don't know of any cases of the condition. As I've said, I've heard of one case of hip dysplasia. I know of a few cases of cancer - mostly at very old ages as in humans. That's it. My dog has mild allergies, but there are no other cases in her pedigree and we suspect that it's connected to overuse of antibiotics when she was a tiny pup. So my experience of a fairly large study group is that the picture painted by the breed clubs is accurate - but that's not to say that problems aren't lurking and that things can't be improved upon. Which is why I said to you before, if you have evidence that the information that the breed clubs and the kennel club publish is inaccurate or incomplete then I strongly urge you to inform them. I know you've since said that you only know of three dogs each with 1 condition, but that information is still valuable. It may be that the few Beagles that you come into contact are not representative - sometimes a particular line develops problems that aren't representitive of the breed and it's important people know about this if the problem is to be prevented from spreading throughout the breed. Or it may be that it's widespread and that other people, like you are sitting on the information and failing to give it to the people in a position to take action.
The owners of the affected dog have found others with similar porblems, they dont go away if you keep breeding from the same stock!! http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/download/1510/hsbeagle.pdf This is the BVA's finding on Beagle health, it does state cardiac disease as being a primary cause, 3rd in fact. Only cancer and old age were above it, to me regardless of how many dogs were surveyed, it tell the story that many Beagles have heart problems to a degree. It states the median age is 12yrs, which I think is really good. One other site states Pulmonary Stenosis affects some beagles, I am not 100% sure, but I think this is what the one I board has. Other quotes from UK sites: Im not trying to say they are UNhealthy, just that there are issues there. Im not sure how long you have owned the breed, but my experience is 15yrs boarding them regularly and exhibiting dogs for 20yrs. I also have an interest in working/pack beagles, more healthy and less exaggerated IMO. The "circles" you speak of are all around us!!
Im sorry why should I tell the beagle breeders? You have just told me you have heard of quite a few problems, didnt you inform anyone? For petes sake!! The breeders of the dogs I know DO know, they still show very successfully and they still breed regularly, what does that tell you?
I didn't suggest you report it to the breeders. I suggested you report it to the breed associations and Kennel Club. They are the ones in a position to enforce action to improve the health of the breed. And yes, the people with the dogs with health problems that I know of did report them to the kennel club. I told you that my breeder friend had contacted the Kennel Club to enquire about health tests for the Beagle and was told that there weren't any significant health problems. Well my friend told her about the epilepsy problem with her dog and a few other dogs in that line and the Kennel Club representitive told her "Thank you for letting us know about this. We can only take action if dog owners act responsibly and let us know about health issues with their dogs". That's why I passed on the suggestion to you. I'd like to hear more about your research on the health of pack beagles! I'm also interested in what aspects of the beagle you think are exagerated! I've done quite a bit of research on the pack (Eton College Beagles) that my little girl descends from and actually have a photo of a beagle that was just one generation away from a pack beagle (coincidentally she was owned by a lady we know from the park that used to breed beagles in the 50's and 60's. She'd always said our little girl looked just like her first - we never guessed that they were related). She's the spitting image of our little girl build-wise, but our girl has more refined features and bigger ears. But our girl is not typical of the breed today (I researched this as I was interested to find out where she got her build from). I managed to track down and speak to most of the breeders between the Eton College Beagles and my girl. I also managed to aquire photos of many of the dogs so have a clear picture of what changed in that line and when. I manage to aquire lots of old books from the the early part of the 20th century. One particularly interesting one from the 20's was written by a man that was master of the Thorpe Satchville Beagles for 30 years!! Others were written by the first breeders to breed show beagles in the 1950's and 1960's. There is lots of information in these books regarding what constitutes a good beagle, health problems and so on. So I have LOTS of info to share about how the breed developed if you are interested. I like the way my little girl looks. In my opinion she's nicer than the typical show beagle, but she's also nicer than the typical pack beagle. She's a good mix of the two. I can't possibly say that I prefer pack beagles though as until people started breeding beagles for showing there was no single beagle type. Different packs were bred to hunt different terrain so there were huge differences in appearance. Some (like the ones that my little girl descended from) were fine boned and long legged. But I've also got pictures of pack beagles from the early 1900's that look exactly like the other dogs in my little girl's breeders line. I like a dog to be athletic. There are some show beagle lines that I think fit the bill and some that don't.
Please show me where I said I researched the health of pack Beagles. I did say I had an interest in them, WORKING them. I am a pro hunter and like foot packs. The packs I have an interest in have not experienced any of the issues I have mentioned. Ears, bone, short legs.
You've clearly done enough research to know that the packs that you have interest in have not experienced any of the health issues that you mentioned. That's all I meant by research. I didn't presume that you'd carried out proper, scientific research So which pack masters did you ask about the health of their hounds? Did you ask whether they destroy hounds with health problems such as epilepsy that often occur long after the hound has been bred from? One thing to bear in mind is that pack hounds are euthanised at about 8 or 9 years old as they are too old to run with the pack after that and can't be rehomed. So we probably won't be able to get a complete picture of the health and longevity of the pack hound. Also, health problems in show bred beagles only occur in some lines. You could research the dogs produced by some breeders and find virtually no health problems whereas others would have more significant numbers of health problems. I'm sure the same is true within beagle packs. Do you know anything about the pack breeding practices nowadays - for example, how much movement between packs is there? It's a complex subject and I'd not be quick to make judgements about whether pack or show hounds are healthiest. On the one hand no pack master will breed from dogs that aren't sound hunters (and therefore presumably free from health problems), but would they care if the hounds became ill after putting in a few years work? And lets face it, if they have a fantastic hunter with a health condition that's likely to be reproduced in 50% of it's young would they definately choose not to breed from that dog? After all, they have a chance of 50% of the young being healthy, good hunters. They euthanise their animals themselves when they can no longer work, and they never give pack hounds to pet homes - in fact it's illegal to sell a pack hound. So there are no pet owners to complain about health problems and no vets to report on the extent of problems. As I said, I have old books with pictures of lots of the packs taken in the early 19th century and I may be able to dig out some pictures of the packs that you have hunted with so that you can see how much (if at all) the pack has evolved over the years. I think you'll find it very interesting. Now you mention ears, bone and short legs. Certainly the Eton College Beagle that I traced my little bitch back to had small ears, long legs and much ligher bone. And apparantly she was typical of not only the Eton College Beagles but also a pack that used to hunt in Edinburgh in the 1950's. However, as I flick through the pictures in the books I see a huge amount of variety in the hounds in the early 1900's. Everything from stocky to slender, small eared to large eared and short legged to long legged. Some are very similar to some of the hounds we see in the show ring today and others look like a different breed. Now I have seen a few show beagles that are very short legged, but most can be matched up with a counterpart from early 20th century packs. Here's a little quote from the book I mentioned from the 1920's Also... Basically what I'm trying to convey from the book is that there was huge variety, no single type and constant evolution in the world of pack beagles. This was long before people started breeding for the show ring. One thing that I am curious about. Amongst pack beagles we apparantly had and still have a number of different breed types. As all show beagles descended (very recently - in the 50's and 60's we had virtually no show bred beagles in this country) from pack beagles we have a situation where a number of different pack types were crossbred to produce a single beagle type. In theory, in many show lines we should see greater diversity than you'd get in any beagle pack. Certainly when I traced back through my own dog's pedigree I found very little repetition despite going back to the early 20th century. Anyway, it's a very interesting subject. I'll dig out a book written by one of the early show breeders. It talks about what changes were made to the English pack beagles, how those changes were made and why.
Please Scarter, I dont think I can go through all this Im really not interested in which books you have read but Im pleased you have, and I appreciate the time you took to write it. ( I dont mean that the way it may of read ) I wont change my mind, the show Beagle has much more bone than it used to, HUGE ears and much shorter legs. Many would not be able to perform the job they were bred for and it means a lot to me, likewise top kennels breeding from the same animals that produce Epilepsy, overshot jaws and dogs with severe cardiac defects. Your post would be appreciated in the Beagle discussion thread as those interested in history etc. may like to read it.
can I ask?, IF pack beagles are not allowed to be sold to pet homes/or out with the hunt type of community, how did the show beagles descend from a mix of pack beagles?
I would hope it would be appreciated in THIS beagle discussion thread. But no need for you to explain that you're not interested!! Whilst I was responding to your comments my responses weren't really aimed at you I'll dig out some photos of pack hounds from the early 20th century so people can see the diversity for themselves. The opening poster doesn't know the origins of her Beagle (she doesn't even know for sure it is pure beagle). It could be descended from show beagles, harriers, fox hounds, pack beagles or a combination of these. She's stated that she's interested in learning more about where he might have come from and what health issues might be associated. I'll dig out more relevant photos and info later. I think it's more the case that pack hounds can't be sold. Period. I don't remember the exact details, but during the war pack breeding programs were stopped and many packs were disbanded. Consequently, when the war ended the packs were in a sorry state. In order to build up the packs to their former glory a ruling was passed that no pack hound can be sold. The idea was that all pack masters should have access to the best breeding stock and money should not be an object. As far as I know that ruling was never reversed. Mooma, the opening poster, mentioned this too: So maybe she can remember the source of her information? Now the breeding of show dogs started properly in the 50's. Pretty much all the major UK lines that I researched seem to originate from a pairing between a pack bitch and and an American show beagle stud. The americans had been breeding show dogs for a long time and and their dogs bred true to type. It seems it was the introduction of the American blood that resulted in a rapid standardisation of the show beagle. I don't know how the show breeders aquired the pack hounds - maybe they got them for free or maybe the pack masters broke the rules and sold them. I don't know what happens nowadays to puppies born to pack hounds that are surplus to requirements or not considered good hunters. I'm pretty sure they can't be sold as pets, and they can't be kept with the pack. Even if law doesn't prevent it I know (from speaking to a master of one of the packs) that they typically don't approve of Beagles being kept as pets (this is hunting beagles they're referring to - not show dogs that have been bred for their temprement and suitability as pets as well as for looks). They say they don't have the temprement and it's cruel. Presumably they are euthanised. I'm sure a few end up as pets for one reason or another so it's not out of the question that that's where the little dog in this post came from.....except he's too big. I believe that size is even more of an issue with hunting beagles as even at 16 inches they are too fast for people on foot. Certainly in the books from the 1920's they talked of 14.5 inches being the biggest size to aim for. However, it was considered a good idea to start a pack with some good quality 16 inch beagles and breed a smaller dog from them. It seems unlikely that you'd have a pure bred 21 inch beagle from show or pack lines.
Not true, my friends have 3 pack Beagles, many packs will allow certain folk to have one of their Hounds. I also know a couple people that have Fox Hounds too, from packs.
Not a penny, and I also know a guy in Wales that breeds Harriers, he gives them away too on the very odd occasion he has a litter.
I thought as much. You missread what I'd said when you informed me that it wasn't true that pack hounds couldn't be sold. As I said, selling of pack hounds is not allowed. Period. And I have managed to find my source. I had remembered correctly the ruling on this: http://www.airedalebeagles.com/beagles.html As I said to shona, show breeders would have no doubt been given hounds for free - if they paid for them then the pack masters were breaking the rules.
I didnt misread what you read, I didnt read it at all! I only read the line you wrote in response to Shona, the first line at that. I felt you implied people couldnt own them either, not true, they can. There is also nothing stopping those that have given Hounds breeding from them and selling the pups.
Mooma, I thought this might be of interest to you. I was flicking through the latest issue of "Full Cry", which is a newsletter for friends of Beagle Wellfare. In their rehoming report they say: So it would seem that it's common for pet shops to sell beagle's crossed with either foxhounds or harriers. And it would also seem that they are harder to cope with than beagles. I know you say your little boy is adorable, but you also mentioned he's a real handful. It might be worth contacting Beagle Welfare to see if they have any advice on handling these harrier/foxhound crosses. They would probably be able to tell you for sure if this is what you have got and can probably give you answers to your questions regarding health issues and temprament. Here's the website: http://www.beagleadvice.org.uk It sounds as if you might well be right in thinking that your little boy is more of a handful than the typical Beagle. But I'm certain he'll be worth the effort. Best of luck, and let us know how things work out.
