Northern Inuits Questions

Sadly Mick you may well be right, in fact, I am sure you are, but it wont happen whilst people are taken in by the hype and a pretty puppy they will keep churning them out heredity problems and all

I think the NI does have a future but it needs to be more well planned with very breeder taking advantage of health testing and screening. Ela and many others are involved in DNA research and all thats needed is a bit more co-operation and a bit less bitching!

Yes there is a lot of inbreeding at the start of the lines but show me a dog breed that doesn't. There are rare breeds across the world of different animals in a worse state should these be left to die out?

Its easy to say let them go but for people who have a passion for this breed that is not an option. I'm sure the people behind the Chinook dog feel the same . . .

But there is still inbreeding NOW!! not just at the start

I just 2 weeks ago met a lady with a labrador bitch who is experiencing just the same thing - the bitch is very good with people, but suddenly became aggressive to other dogs after having her first (and only) litter. I will start a new thread on this as the lady is bewildered on what to do to get rid of the aggression.

It happens in all breeds, rightly or wrongly. I have read that inbreeding is common is 'UK Malamute Pedigrees'. It happens in all breeds, rightly or wrongly.

I'm not really in on this big debate, but I have been looking for a Vizsla puppy, and have talked to the 9 breeders from the club in my area, 4 did not give me a straight answer, but 5 of them answered in almost the exact words: Q: "Do you line breed?" A:"Yes, I have done several line breeds."

I understand that line breeding and inbreeding are two different things, but, IMO, it still has similar results. Don't say that it doesn't happen anywhere else, because I am sure that I could post up on a UKC or AKC website here and get plenty of people that line breed. Additionally, a lot of dog breeding genetic books even suggest doing some line-breeding. I dunno how old the books that I have personally read are, but they are free to use at my training facility and I typically read up on the subject during down time while I am working events. I am currently out of state, but when I get a chance to go back, I will try to find a good reference.

I think that these groups stand a chance if they get everything in order and plan a little better. I have done other researching and have seen some of the changes that have been made, and I think that both groups are heading in the right direction now. They just need to use all of the resources available to them and eventually they will have a large enough pool of genes that line breeding will not be necessary. It's like bringing an animal back from extinction. Line breeding will happen, but eventually the genes will be so far that it won't really matter. I think that adding anymore lines (like more huskies, mals or GSDs) would just make the problem worse. They need to act like they are at ground zero and go from there.

Don't everyone jump at me, but this argument is rather silly. I see people hating people and saying cruel things just for the sake of saying cruel things. It doesn't seem like this breed is going anywhere, so it would be easier just to accept that and help give support to those that did end up with an ill dog, and learn from those mistakes to help better the breed. Many people here seem very knowledgeable, wouldn't it be better to say "yeah, you screwed up, but lets think of ways to make it better?" instead of "they just need to die out"?

After all, there is no breed that is "pure" only the wolf is that. Everything else has been created by man, and not all with 100% success (GSD's backs? breathing problems of the short-nosed breeds? Huskies with bad hips?). In time, with planning, everything will smooth out.

In breeding and line breeding by the experienced, using dogs who's lines and health are known for about 10 generations back, is practised when required and can produce good results in conformation and health. It can not, or should not, be undertaken in an unestablished breed that has few reliable records and next to no health checks stretching beyond one or two generations.

I do not believe, from what I am told and have read, that there is a single dog of these types of breeds that the owner knows beyond doubt that it does not carry a hereditary problem in it's genes simply because there are no reliable records for them to use to ascertain this. You need the records from at least 10 generation not only the direct line but the siblings of that line.

Most experienced breeders will not even need to look this up they will know if a dogs cousin twice removed three generations back had a hereditary problem with his eyes and will react appropriately to this knowledge without even thinking about it. They know that line is a no go area.

We all know that irresponsible people do make mistakes at times in established breeds but these are individual dogs not the entire breed.

lunakitty

IMO line breeding is not how I would describe the inbreeding that has gone on in the NI

one problem is that now there are so many splits between the NI and Ute groups each further reducing the original gene pool between each group.

the NIS think their gene pool is large enough, don't see the inbreeding and don't plan to bring in any new dogs

Tida recognise that there is a problem and plan to introduce new blood into their lines

BIDC and independendant breeders have gone one step further and already introduced new breeds into their lines, reducing the inbreeding, but their dogs are no longer NI dogs

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How are you defining 'in-breeding'? If you mean the mating of very closely related individuals (brother/sister, mother/son, father/daughter) then no this is not common in UK bred Mals. If you are simply refering to line breeding then yes this is common.

LOL I am rather enjoying all your digs at Malamutes..its quite funny when you think that really you are slagging off your own breed too considering where NI supposedly came from..but carry on, give it your best shot..When Mals are in the state that NI are..I wouldn't be having one..

Yeah... WW...what she said..

Not sure if you mean what this appears to say, that Tida do not think the breed is stabilised and is going to start/continue cross breeding.

I am pleased they realise they have a problem but if they are going to out cross how will they choose the animals they are going to use. It reads as if they will use an NI on one side and a different breed on the other. Is this the case?

How will you know the NI you are using will not be a carrier of something unwanted? Will you find owners of studs of another breed of good enough quality who are willing to allow their dogs pedigree to go forward into the NI gene pool or will you buy in suitable animals of good stock, and if this is the case will you tell their breeders what you have in mind.

quote from Tida site

We now have the latest technology in our new Data Base together with a genetic program that will help breeders to choose the best pairing of dogs and bitches. We have created a genetic map of the breed, updated at regular intervals, which will enable us to pin point weaknesses within the breed and eradicate lines with genetic flaws.

A breeding programme is being developed involving TIDA breeders to improve the health and expand the small gene pool of these dogs in order to ensure the vitality of the breed in the future. This will take time and careful planning to achieve.

The Inuit Dog Association will allow their breeders to use other dogs/ bitches that fit the Breed Standard and are fully health checked in their breeding programme for a specific purpose, such as to eliminate a health problem or breeding fault or to improve the gene pool. The resulting litters will be eligible for registration on a star system provided all necessary checks have been carried out and all results forwarded with the litter registration together with a four generation pedigree and photograph of the dog/ bitch that has been used.

Any health problems with dogs will to be entered onto the genetics data base. So that when matching a dog for breeding the breeder can identify the probability of any problems that might arise from any particular mating At the genetics Meeting Jeff Sampson who gave the talk, advised that we should outcross to more wolf look a like dogs registered on a Star System. Any puppies crossed from the litter would have a 4*, when that dog is bred with an NI a 3* and when down the zero the puppies would be genuine NI’s.



the above is from the Tida site, I understand that any progeny from a NI to non NI mating used in the breeding plan would be put back to an NI, when this had been done over 4 generations the progeny would then be classed as NI

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OK i may seem a little dumb here but does this bit

The Inuit Dog Association will allow their breeders to use other dogs/ bitches that fit the Breed Standard and are fully health checked in their breeding programme for a specific purpose, such as to eliminate a health problem or breeding fault or to improve the gene pool. The resulting litters will be eligible for registration on a star system provided all necessary checks have been carried out and all results forwarded with the litter registration together with a four generation pedigree and photograph of the dog/ bitch that has been used.

mean that a Tilda member can hypothetically own a malamute that has health clearances, and a GSD that has health clearances and if they have the "look" ie not actually looking like a mal or a gsd (possibly not well bred mals & gsd)be mated to produce these pups?

Mo

well I can't answer for the Tida committee but it seems to be that you could add Mal or GSD to NI in their breeding programme. I suppose in theory it would mean that if you had a Mal and GSD you could cross these together, then cross the progeny back to NI for the 4 generations.


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I actually quite like Mals and was not having a dig, just pointing out that even in your chosen breed there is inbreeding, it happens in all breeds.

Can someone explain how adding the odd ill bred Mal or Gsd to the NI breeding programme will produce a healthy breed, please.

Congratulations to them for realising they have a problem but no marks at all for their idea of a solution.

You take one NI that may be carrying goodness knows what and mate it to an ill bred Mal or Gsd carrying goodness knows what and you will produce what? More unhealthy ill bred Mal or Gsd crosses.

Hi Greyhawk, I used the term inbreeding as that is what I have read.

Well define YOUR meaning of inbreeding then WW???

Maybe in some lines (of Mal) there is a degree of inbreeding..But nowhere NEAR the NI inbreeding

But in other lines(of Mal) there is linebreeding which is done very very well and has been long thought out and researched

It would help if we knew what you mean by inbreeding

I know SC says on her website she is putting a GSD to her NID (she used to own this dogs sister and the dog attacked SC and was rehomed, I have never met this dog however, so I do not know about his temprement, there is a pic etc of him on her website, according to her he has been mated with an Utonagan in the past) I wondered how this would improve the 'health problems' that she states the NID breed is suffering from. I am glad you have brought this up Pita as I thought it was just me.