NIS and prong collars General Chat

Now please don't shoot me down in flames it is only an observation but has anyone else noticed that the majority of people not adversed to the prong collar are male?
Just a thought and I dont want to start a row

I didn't know they were a piece of equipment reccommended specifically for NI, I thought they were a piece of equipment that could be used as a last resort for any stubborn dog of any breed where other methods have failed.

I was not aware they were being reccommended by the NIS and owning NI's myself have never had the need for one (yes mine do pull but not to the extent that I can't manage or control them, I do however use a headcoller on my male), and am in no way condoning the willy nilly use of such equipment. What I am saying is that in the right hands used correctly as a last resort by a responsible owner they probably are not as bad as they are made out to be, the severe injuries shown have probably occured through mis-use, just as internal throat damage can be caused by the misuse of a check chain but plenty of people use those.

I would never use such a thing on my dog. Not ever.

May I ask that if this is so, why the need for a prong collar? I do know about your dogs - my dog's litter brother was re-named one of them - and I would never use anything like this on him. What is wrong with patience, positive training and gaining mutual understanding?

Oh, how awful!

Excellent post.

Keep it on a lead around sheep and take it somewhere else for off-lead runs. I managed to do this when I went on a recent holiday to Wales.

As stated previously a Prong collar is a good training aid to correct a problem. It is not the only way, but a way. You may know of the breed but you have no knowledge of my dogs personally. There is nothing wrong with patience, positive training and mutual respect. I have stated I am all for positive reinforcement, I also have been trained in the proper use of a prong collar and they work well when properly used.
On a side not, When I recieved my training in the use of the prong collar no animals were hurt during their use.

Did you happen to notice as well that most posts against the prong collar come from people that never heard of them, never used them, and are opposed to even thinking about using another different training device? All training collars have there advantages and disatvantages. Halti's (spl), Gentle leaders, and even a regular dog collar can hurt your dog if not properly fitted and used correctly. If you would like the pro's and cons of a particular collar, send me a PM.

At least normal collars/halti's are flat, they don't have things poking out into the neck I also do not like choke chains either... I have a dog that pulls and I would not use one of those primitive torture devices
Yes some dogs take longer to train, but if you can't be bothered to put in the efforts with kindness, dont bl**dy bother getting a dog

Have I had to use one, no, have I used one yes but I haven't had to give any correction using one.

My dog wears a flat collar all the time and that is what he is walked on, I have only used a prong at classes where he is sometimes very distracted and the prong self corrects. I tried the prong after seeing a number of other dogs with them, probably 20+ and I have yet to see one showing any sign of distress. In my opinion a prong collar is much better for the dog than the choke's I have used in the past, I certainly wouldn't use a choke again.

Ian

The following article comes from a US Doberman Rescue site, the author says it's ok to copy it and pass on:

THE PRONG COLLAR REVISITED
fact vs. fiction
​

Julia Maclachlan
Of all the tools used in dog training, perhaps none is more widely misunderstood and maligned than the prong collar (also known as the pinch collar). Many well-meaning but misinformed people assume that judging by its looks, the prong collar is a barbaric device intended to "stab" a dog's neck in order to correct misbehavior. While walking my own dogs on this type of collar I have encountered complete strangers who think nothing of telling me how cruel I am to use such a harsh device. While I am indifferent to this type of comment, I worry that similar incidents will drive responsible dog owners away from using this excellent, effective and kind (yes, kind) training tool on dogs that benefit from it the most. This article is meant to reassure those who are already using the collar or are considering it and more importantly, to educate those who think it is "cruel" or unfair to the dog.
While many people think that the prong collar is a trendy new gadget for the modern dog owner, the fact is that it predates the much more commonly used choke chain. Prong type collars appear in photographs and sketches in European training literature from the turn of the century. Presumably invented by people who relied on their dogs' obedience, responsiveness and good attitude in a time when most dogs had actual "jobs", the prong collar still has a prominent place in the "toolbox" of the modern, balanced dog trainer.
The prong collar works on the concept that evenly applied pressure is gentler and more effective on a dog's neck than the quick jerk and impact of a choke chain or the steady, relentless pressure of a flat collar. While a professional trainer can make a choke chain correction look fast and flawless, it is very difficult for most pet dog owners to master the timing and the release of the correction. Also, even a perfectly executed choke chain correction is a repeated impact on a single spot on a dog's neck. The current trend of the "head halter" system is equally flawed. In an earlier edition of this article, I referred to it as a good choice for dogs with structural problems. In the past few years I have spoken with veterinarians, trainers and owners who took issue with that recommendation based on the potential insult to the soft tissue of the dog's upper neck and the often careless way in which the headcollar is used by people who are assured that it is "humane" and cannot harm their dog. Like every other training tool, it also has its place. However, for a breed already beset with potential spinal and structural problems such as the Doberman, I find myself recommending it less and less. The self-limiting tightening action of the prong collar also makes it a safer bet for strong-pulling dogs. A prong collar can only be pulled so tight, unlike the choke or slip collar, which has unlimited closing capacity and in careless or abusive hands, can cut a dog's air entirely.
Another aspect of the prong collar is its simulation of a natural "correction" that one dog gives another. If you watch a couple of dogs interacting, you'll notice that a lot of mouthing behavior takes place. Dogs have evolved over tens of thousands of years to tolerate the toothy attention of their canine friends and family, usually in play or posturing and sometimes in a more serious mode. The degree of intensity in their mouthing can be inhibited or increased depending on their relationship with a particular dog and the issue at hand. Likewise, the prong collar can be configured in several ways other than the traditional "live ring" setting that most people use. It can be deadened by hooking both the "d"-ring and the "o"-ring together, rubber tips can be put on some or all of the prongs, prongs can be reversed so that there is only pressure on certain areas. Many of the prong collar's loudest critics are unaware of these variations of its use and throw the word "pain" around freely. A close look at the actual prongs will tell a more perceptive person about the concept of "pain" as delivered from a prong collar: the tips of the prong are very blunt. The larger the prong, the milder the pressure. Put a prong collar around your own arm or leg (or neck, if you must!) and judge for yourself. Now take another look at your dogs as they play roughly: the type of mouthing they solicit from one another in fun would send a human being to the emergency room and yet it barely ruffles the fur on their necks. Remember this when you see a prong collar; not only doesn't it "hurt" your own ultra-sensitive human skin, when correctly fitted and used, it is only a fraction of the pressure dogs use with one another.
The prong collar is often referred to as the "hearing aid" collar: a dog properly introduced to it in the hands of a person likewise prepared suddenly understands the expectations upon him. Rather than the nagging of a choke or slip collar or the constant muzzle and poll pressure of a head halter, the dog feels no pressure at all except at a precise instant when he makes an incorrect decision. Because of its ease of use and the usually rapid positive change in the dog's attitude and behavior, the prong is an excellent choice for elderly or physically compromised people with strong dogs, small people with large dogs, and even the tiniest of the toy breeds which risk permanent damage from regular collars. Even dogs with certain structural problems can be worked successfully on a prong collar rather than allowed to drag their owners around on a harness!
So, with all of the good stuff associated with the prong collar,shouldn't every dog wear one? ABSOLUTELY NOT! Some dogs, due to genetics or a poor upbringing, respond poorly to any sort of pressure. Some dogs have spinal problems so severe that no pressure should ever be put on them; these are often dogs who would benefit more from the judicious use of an electronic collar, which uses no overt physical force at all. Very dog aggressive dogs can sometimes escalate their behavior if the prong collar is used primarily as a correction around other dogs. They are often the best candidates for head halters. A good dog trainer will assess your particular dog and your own handling skills before recommending any type of method or equipment. In your search for that trainer, stay clear of those who swear by only one tool, one theory, or one way of doing things. While we balanced trainers have benefitted from their limitations and make lifelong friends and clients of their "failures", they are responsible for many dogs and owners parting ways. Many a dog in the DRU shelter bears the label of "untrainable" from a trainer who was inflexible.
The next time you see a dog being walked or worked on a prong collar, think before you jump to conclusions. Does the dog look fairly happy and comfortable with his handler? Does the handler have control without restraint? Ask people who use them how they like prong collars and why they chose this tool for their dog; they'll probably be relieved that you want to be educated and that you're not going to accuse them of cruelty to animals! If you use a prong collar on your dog, try to educate those who would judge you as "harsh" rather than responding defensively. Most of these people mean well: they are quite willing to learn the truth and will be flattered that you take the time to explain it to them. There will always be erstwhile "trainers" and owners who are ineducable due to their personal opinions or emotions. Try not to worry about what they think: your dog will keep reminding you of what he knows. Since we at Doberman Rescue Unlimited are in it for the dogs first, we endorse the use of prong collars on many of our charges.

My boy, Diesel is a big strong lad and yes he pulls. I am not strong but would NEVER consider useing one of these horrid collars!! I have a harness where the lead clips on at the front of his chest, so when he pulls it turns him in toward me so therefore he is unable to pull, no matter how distracted he gets. So why not, for those of you useing these collars for the perpose of stopping your dog pulling, try something kinder like this harness??? Surely this is much better for the dog???

Just out of interest what other methods did you try with your dog in this situation...was the prong collar the first port of call or did you try other methods first?

I have seen e-collers used...only on extreme cases of dog to dog or human aggression - with lots of sucsess......I think with what we know now with regards to the CAT protocol etc it is no longer nessecary...although I can see why people take the 'easy' option.

Hi Tarheel

No, I do not agree it is a good way - there are better ways than taking short cuts such as this.

Interestingly, my dog's breeder (the founder of your breed) appeared to advocate positive training to me. There isn't much difference between your breed and mine - (depending upon the dogs, there isn't any) - and based upon my experience of Utonagan dogs, I do not see that it is necessary to use such a device.

At the end of the day, we all have a choice. We can choose to train our dogs with love and patience and develop a relationship that is second to none with them, based upon mutual respect and trust, it takes time, but it's worth it for both parties...OR we can MAKE them comply with our every demand and if we don't we can punish them and develop a relationship based, for their part, on fear, doesn't take long and you never know whenh they'll fight back...but it can make you feel big and strong before they do.

I know what I would go for everytime.
Prong collars should be in the same bin as check chains and ecollars.

Very good post.....
I think it seems to come from the 'Alpha' mentality in which people also feel it is OK to pin dogs down becasue they happen to have seen dogs doing it to each other without understanding the real body language going on .

Bit of an oversimplification to say that you can either have positive OR negative reinforcement, you can also train by rewarding when the dog gets it right AND correcting when it gets it wrong, this approach is taken by a lot of sporting (daren't say working on here) owners.

Ian

Why not say working on here? Therer are plenty of working owners.
No it's not an over simplification..using a prong/ecollar/or check chain is beyond saying no then praising your dog when it stops the behaviour. There's bullying...or there's guidance.

I agree with you. Things like distraction, getting focus, diverting interest then rewarding correct behaviour get better results with my dog.

my dog would be beside himself if i ever used anything like that on him.. thats all i need to know can't say it surprises me though really..

For me, I would loose all the trust that Beau has for me, it has taken me 8 months to get to this point with him. He is not perfect by any means but I plan to have him for 12+ years so we have plenty of time

how very very sad.... I find the rotties very trainable... never needed to use one. I would look for a new class.. with a trainer who had some tallent..in training handlers as well as dogs