Things you think are 'wrong' with wolfy type crosses/new 'breeds'? Discussions

Yes indeed xxxxxxxx

My point is that they are used by inept owners in my opinion, but that's just my opinion. This doesn't prove that there is a problem with the wolfy dogs.

Just been reading over the posts I have missed. Great post, thanks for your input xxx

Can we try to get this thread back on track. It's not about the way forward, it's supposed to be about facts proving the wrongness of the wolfy dogs. There seems to have been very few of those so far, but plenty of conjecture, even from respected members.

Dawn, whilst I empathise wholeheartedly with your mission of improving all dog breeds, when you post that you know a dog that's (in your opinion) been too in-bred then when asked if there's a health issue say no, but there might be in the future, this can be considered scaremongering. You think there has been too much in-breeding, and your proof is there might be a problem with the dog. How is this helpful?

I have yet to see any facts that show there is a problem specific to the wolfy breeds. All of the facts so far can be directed towards other breeds, new and old.

What amazes me is that the majority of NI owners and more so, breeders havent bred a dog before having these dogs, their entire "knowledge" is based on what others have said, the VERY thing they critisise others for. Their experience of breeding dogs and knowing what inbreeding is, or the probable problems that will arise from it, is virtually none. Those more experienced breeders, have indeed caused these problems, that is not a lie, nor a maybe its a fact!

Go read cry wolf forum Efes, all the proof you need is there.

Facts, figures, statistics ????????

Prove they are false, facts go both ways.

Another sweeping statement Dawn. Majority? Based on what evidence?

I think I can see what you're saying, but the first sentence doesn't make sense. The majority of NI owners aren't breeding. More so the breeders,? Surely only the breeders are breeding?

And you've spoken to this majority and know that their experience is so little?

And yet it's the experienced breeders that are the problem? So to sumarise:

• the experienced breeders don't know what they're doing
• the problem is other breeders aren't talking to the experienced breeders

Ummmm, I'm confused

Ah but who're the posters saying there is a problem, and that it's a big one. I'm not saying there isn't a problem, I'm asking some to prove their statements that there is one.

As Efes123 has said 'evidence'

Do facts and figures really matter that much?

Its been proven that there are some high hip scores and instances of HD. Its been proven that there are a few dogs with epliepsy. Its been proven that some owners are really worried when their "so called pedigree's" show that related dogs to the epileptic one's are in their line.

Its maybe not as high in number as people think (since we dont have every single wolfie type breed owner and breeder on here) but there is no proof so far either way on numbers. What has been proven is that there are some health problems already.

What has also been proven by posts on forums is that some people care and others dont seem to.

Maybe the health problems arent enough to make people stop and think about the future of the breed if breeding carries on the way it is. It should be though so things dont progress to the point that its a really serious issue like in some other breeds.

Of course. How can we establish if there are serious problems in any area if we don't know true numbers?

Why wait until they perhaps become a serious problem though? There are problems already.

who and why

There has been so many allergations going around that there has to be a point where they seriously need looking into.
Questions have been asked and no answers are ever given?

The people who should be answering concerns are relying on saying nothing and hoping it will all blow over, as their defence.

Thankyou liz & Kiesha

Two things, firstly, we are being led to believe there are serious problems, hence I used that term and of course I want proof as would anyone. I ceratinly do not beleive everything I read or hear.

Secondly, I know there are cases of epilepsy. But the ones I know of all but one is a result of SCs bad practices. So hopefully the dogs in question will never be bred from. One of the breeding bitches is currently up for rehoming, again, although it says pet home only, I hope the breeder will actually have her spayed before she goes. As for high hip scores that is prevalent in many breeds, such dogs should not be bred from, again I know SC has been gulity of this , using Merlin and Wilo then finding out they have high scores. Wilo thankfully had been given to another breeder at this time and was not used to breed again. Merlin was intentionally studed out by SC knowing he had a high score.

There may be a lot of allegations going on, but they seem to be:

• the same old allegations
• by the same few posters
• posted on every wolfy thread

The starting point should surely be: Is there a health problem in the wolfy breeds Not are they any health problems, of course there are, but are there enough problems for it to be a problem. I hope that makes sense!?!

The allegations have been:

Too much inbreeding
No-one seems to know what is too much. And looking at what's been posted relating to scientific evidence it seems that the older the breed is, the more in-breeding goes on, a family of 70 boxers out of 20,000? There doesn't seem to be any consensus on how much is too much.

No-one is denying that in-breeding is going on, but it has to to enable any sort of breed standard. At least the wolfy breeds seem to still be out-crossing, which is more than can be said for established pedigrees.

Massive health problems
The above is only a problem if this is the result. This is the real crux of all of the allegations. There seems to be lots of 'mights', 'coulds', etc being stated but very few dogs with actual problems.

Of course there are some dogs with health problems, eliminating them all would be impossible, at this current time. But how big is the problem? Every time this question comes up, the answer is that there must be because of so much in-breeding. Whilst too much in-breeding might increase the amount of health problems, in fact probably will, is it going on in these breeds? I don't think this has been answered satisfactorily, else there wouldn't be so much controversy.

Aggressive behavior
This one keeps coming up every now and then. his one has been disproved, for me anyway. According to research (document on the DEFRA site - related to licensing wild animals) the wolfy breeds appear to be far less aggressive than a lot of other breeds. The one that came top was the GSD.

This research is probably the biggest scientific study done on wolfy animals to date, so it's results can probably be taken as close to proof that we're going to get.

No single control for the breed - dubious pedigrees
I put these 2 together because one seems to lead to the other. Whilst this is a problem, and until it's sorted out it makes it's going to be difficult to have trouble free breeding, it doesn't cause health problems in itself. It may increase the likelihood of health issues.

Some posters use these pedigrees, that they themselves admit can't be trusted, as proof of in-breeding. They seem to pick the worst bits out of them, and then claim that those bits are true.

The above allegations are just about the only ones that have been posted. They keep getting repeated every time there is a thread on wolfy dogs. They get repeated by same few posters every time, they then get picked up and stated as fact by other posters. We're pretty close to 500 posts on this thread and still no-one seems to able to come up with proof of these allegations.

I for one am not yet convinced that there is sufficient proof that there is enough of a health problem within the wolfy breeds to be concerned.

I've numbered the points to make this a bit easier:

1. The only way people can justify their comments is to give their own experiences - due to the poor record keeping and bad feeling between breeders / clubs there is no reliable data. I did not say you believe there are no health issues.

2. I didn't say there is a massive problem with health - I said no one can be sure of the extent of any issues due to the facts I mentioned - that in itself is the massive problem IMO.

3. I'm glad we agree on something!

4. A fair comment but at the end of the day starting sentences with "In my opinion" isn't going to change the situation one way or another.

5. Again - I did not say these facts prove that there are problems. See point 2!

6. No I am not - see point 2!

7. If you re-read my original post you'll see that I am saying all we can do is look at qualitative data and take it from there. From the owner reports I have heard / seen I think the issues raised are more than worth investigating. You can keep asking for numbers and facts but the simple truth is no one here will be able to give you any because they don't exist. Who's fault is that? I'd lay the blame with breeders and breed clubs personally and think the onus is on them to get a handle on the situation and start providing some answers.