Reducing Inbreeding In NI dogs Discussions

Following the Jeff Sampson talk on ' Genetics and The Dangers of Inbreeding'

I found the talk fascinating and wondered what people's opinions are on inbreeding. I have always been very open with my opinion

How do other NI owners feel about it and the way forward for NI dogs?

My personal view is that something needs to be done about inbreeding, the breed can't continue with the genepool we have. The Tida plan was to improve the genepool by adding dogs of the founder breeds but I can't see how this could happen if no-one knows what the founder breeds were. If the founder breeds were unknown or mongrels, and the only pure breed used was GSD then all you could add would be more GSD.

What would you like to see as the way forward for NI in the future

I have not started this thread to have a go at NI dogs or any faction, side or breeder, I would just like to know the views of all NI owners and their views on reducing inbreeding. (If I can figure out how to do a poll I will add a poll.)

IMO the options for the breed are

1 Do nothing, the genepool is large and there are no health problems caused by inbreeding.

2. Do nothing, although the genepool is small and there are health problems, the breed will naturally decline and disappear through natures own ways of reducing inbreeding, smaller litters, monorchidism, infertile dogs, genetic diseases.

3. Add more 'Northern Breeds' (mongrels) that have a Wolfy look about them but are not from health tested lines. This would add a lot of new genes to the pool but they may not all be good.

4. Add Malamute, Sibe, GSD or any pedigree breeds that have a vague Wolfy look. But then accept that the progeny will not be to breed standard, unless the standard is changed to accept the traits that adding these breeds will bring.

5. Add wolf, OK so not really an option.

6. Add Czech or Sarloos, or crosses of these breeds, as these dogs already have the correct look.

7. All factions NI, BID, Utes and unregistered breeders get together with a genetics expert, sort out which dogs are worth breeding from, drop the name Inuit, choose a more appropriate name, and start again with a well researched breeding plan. (But this is probably as likely as option 5)

sorry folks the poll didn't work

I would go for option seven. It would be wonderful if everyone could put things behind them.

just be one group, bringing all NIs back together which would automatically widen the gene pool.

Option six is already being done. The dogs look fab.
I know there is a big debate going on else where about the legalities of owning a "wolfdog" Sarloos or czech. we looked into buying one. Contacted our council they said we would need a license and a suitable enclosure to keep it in.

that was 5 years ago tho so i don't know what the stance is now.

number 7.. but it`s never going to happen unfortunately, not while some are fighting tooth & nail.. that there is currently nothing wrong in the breed :?

I think seeking advice from a respcted/well qualified geneticist has to be the first port of call. I'd probably approach a department at a good university, rather than someone that is a geneticist/breeder, as I feel that the advice you will get will be more honest, up-to-date and impartial.

I realise that if you outcross to another northern breed, say a sibe for example, you may lose a bit of type, but the benefits in terms of health will far outweigh the possible loss of type for a couple of generations. Many of the dogs I've seen look like they could be sibe/Inuit-type crosses (not saying this as a dig, but some do have a sibe look about them), so I really don't think it will be too detrimental to the 'look'. The NI can't go on like it is, and I feel that this is the only positive way forward.

Number 7, with all dogs DNA profiled too, so , there can be absolutely no errors in pedigrees.;-)

Hi AW not seen you in a while, option 7 would be good in an ideal world, but I for one couldn't trust any of the founder members still being involved in the group...

That is a good point Inki, wouldn't it be great if it could happen, but would people put their egos aside for the better of the dogs?

I think I would be putting ALL breeding on hold for the time being..until the breed can be sorted out and find a way forward I don't think any pups should be bred

I don't own an NI but my way of thinking is it's all a bit of bolting the stable door after the horse has bolted.Tend to agree with Louise as in breeding should be stopped until things are looked into.xxxxxxxx

Hmm
difficult
the factions should get back together - really stupid not to only create one new breed but then let infighting create more!!!
Get help from genetisists
cross in as much HEALTHY blood as possible
Keep fantastic records of all the dogs being bred from now on - pedigree, genetics, health

But that is unlikely to happen
the future looks like people will keep fighting, dogs will continue to be bred based more on who is friends with who
more factions will happen
health problems will increase, gene pool get smaller
its a bleak future if someone dosent sort it out

I can't see factions uniting to become just one Association or Society because there is too much lack of trust, personalities, lies, greed etc. and disagreements on all manner of things really. These are among the reasons why splits came about to begin with.

A treaty/common agreement of practices between various groups or such like might stand a chance but not sure - look at the EU . Not sure it would be adhered to and how would you police it?

If there is so little genetic diversity - so many of the same dogs appearing and reappearing in the pedigrees - so many questionable pedigrees and health issues that are in the lines we have I don't see how this can be achieved without bringing in healthy new blood. Certainly not in the short term, but out-crossing or starting again would also take lots of time.

I think the future looks bright. The way things are going with TIDA I can see the factions coming together again and I don't think it will take too long either.

People from different groups sought advice from Jeff Sampson after the talk he gave and although some mistakes have been made in the past, on the whole the breed HAS been developed in accordance with the methods he advocates, so there's good news. In general the breed is healthier than most and measures are being taken to eradicate the problems where they have been found.

Contrary to popular belief there isn't much infighting at all. Aside from the disagreement between JK and SC (and the odd few who have involved themselves in this), everyone gets on very well. People coming together for the genetics talk illustrates this. Things seem to have blown up out of all proportion here on Dogsey. All in all, I believe the breed is going from strength to strength.

Sally

I was at the genetics talk, so know exactly what was said by Dr Sampson, yes he did say that to produce type breeders have to line breed. But he also said then to outcross to add genes. Sadly I think some people that were at the talk didn't hear him say the word outcross, or hear his views on inbreeding.

Also I had chance to get him on his own for a chat about inbreeding and COI. We had a very interesting talk.

I really do hope that the NIS and Tida can work together for the sake of the dogs, I have always wanted this.

I think 7 if you can!
Line breeding isnt the same as inbreeding, though i think so much in has gone on Outcrosses may be really needed.

lovely dogs, i hope al the probs can be sorted out!!& a way forward sorted. I would love onme in the future!

I'm afraid I have to disagree with all the points I have highlighted in bold. I disagree with the 'methods he advocates' if that means he thinks the NI pedigrees posted on here are acceptable.

I disagree with saying the breed is 'healthier than most'. There shouldn't be a health problem associated with the NI at this stage - it's only been going for 20 years an was apparently created from a mixture of 'northern' mongrels. It could have been healthier than most, if things were done properly from the start, but the degree of inbreeding has ruined the potential the NI had for being a new breed associated with health.

There seems to be a huge amount of infighting from what I have observed on the net - the different factions and different breed names are a reflection of this.

I'm glad people are getting on with eachother, and it's so nice to hear that people are putting politics behind them for the sake of the dogs, but until those 'in charge' take note of the problems with pedigrees and inbreeding, and do something about it, the NIs future looks bleak to me.

Great OP by the way.

I would like to see Tida now take the step and start taking action and bringing in new blood that the breed needs. Nis dont think there is a problem so cant see them doing it, publicly anyway.

Geneticists do not distinguish between line and in breeding, as it is all inbreeding to a degree.

AW good thread.

Did JS really say breeders need to line breed to get type? It is the exact opposite of what he has written in his academic papers ie that one can mate similar looking dogs in an outcross mating and still achieve type. Geneticists call this assortive or phenotypical mating.

Respectfully none of the above. I fear 2 may happen as not enough action will be taken.
If I were being totally objective I would forget current breeding (sorry everyone).....and start again with a new foundation pool with the correct number of foundation dogs and breeds to establish a viable diverse population of Northerns....these days that is considered to be around 200 I believe. I would further suggest that it was overseen by impartial experts to guide the project, and help get COi to single figures in 10 generations.... Blue Sky, I expect.

Mary