Are silver sable GSD's rare? Questions

totally! and your dogs are gorgeous to boot!

PMD are flock guards not sheepdogs or shepherd dogs , there are Pyrenean sheepdogs that are not white BTW

Sorry it has nothing to do with the German Breeds of sheep not recognizing the dog as a dog, they are hot wired to react to coloured dogs not white dogs. GSDs are not flock guards like the white flock guards else where in Europe.

Your dog may be very pretty, is she after a day working sheep in the rain & snow ??

Dogs lacking black masks are allowed for in the breed standard.

As for using white dogs as patrol dogs for the forces, what a good idea-that would enable criminals to see the dogs positions clearly & help them evade apprehension

The RAF do have white GSDs but only in their demonstration teams

The poor quality of "white"GSDs bred for their colour is down to pet/BYB/puppy farmers breeding for money. Nothing to do with the culling of white GSDs back in the 1940s & 1950s. Culled stopped when the vets became reluctant to destroy healthy puppies & drowning puppies became an offence(although it doeesn't stop puppy farmers culling their worn out broods)

In the 1970's a previously normal colour breeder realised she could make money out of breeding white to white(& longcoat to longcoat)she had @ one time over 75 breeding bitches who were bred every season(before the KC changed their rules), she bred from poor dogs to start with & her dogs are behind nearly all the white GSDs in the UK, she never did any health tests & was never bothered about the temperaments of her dogs even when she was KC showing them(she showed the most nervous of dogs & won in the 1950s because the breed standard had"noted suspicion of strangers"added to cover this)

When breeders start breeding for colour & coat type alone & may no heed to the breed's origins then they are in it for the money. Tell my friend who breeds longcoat obedience GSDs about problems with doing LC to LC breeding. The breeders keep their mouths shut when they produce litter after litter with dwarfs in them(my friend didn't realise that this had happened)The poor little dogs have short lives & not pleasant for most of it(not that her puppy will be allowed to suffer)

You saw the BOB at Crufts back off the judge ????? I think not you must have been watching the wrong dogs I've got a video of all the Crufts judging this year & didn't see dogs backing off the judge in droves-not like I did @ Newark earlier this year

Both BOB & Res CC winers have Schutzhund qualifications so can hardly be classed as not being able to work !

GSD judging at crufs? I watched a fair bit of it and never saw one unsound temperament. I also saw the BOB sitting with a lady in a wheelchair with her arms around him.

Now correct me if I'm wrong here, but I think I have read somewhere that some litters can just produce a white the same as some litters can just produce a longcoat, which of course would be classed as a throw out (not in my book though!). In which case, some of the whites or longcoats (which are "undesired" ) are actually from a normal good pedigree litter?

I had an obedience winner at Crufts who was a longcoat back in 1981, and I know for a fact her parents were NOT longcoated because I knew both parents???!! She was classed as a throw out of the litter and that's WHY she had to do obedience instead of showing, because the owner bred and showed all her dogs and lived in Brighton at the time, but then went on to breed collies after this particular dog had been bred out of her last litter.

The vast majority of dogs will be pets. Not working dogs, not protection dogs, not show dogs. And for pet dogs what sells is a good-looking dog with a nice temperament. I don`t think many people buying or rehoming a GSD these days are really that bothered that it can be seen in the dark. Or mistaken for a sheep.

They were guarding sheep, when I think about it (apologies), they travelled with the flock, I can't remember if there was any flocking involved, but we did see the dogs protecting the sheep. It was a US breed progamme I used to watch. But the footage was not from the USA.

Read my post again & tell me where I said the BOB backed off from the judge. ...or where I said they couldn't work.
Don't express a presumption about which breed I was watching...or doubt my intelligence.

Would love to know more about the breeder on the '70's who showed nervous GSD's.....& somehow the breed standard was changed to cover it..allowing her to win.
Why didn't other exhibitors complain ?
How on earth did she manage to get such a change in the standard ? I'm intrigued.

Would also love more info which shows "standard" colours are better quality than whites.

I've only known one dwarf GSD & that was born in a standard coat litter....littermates were perfect & not one of them were white.

So German sheep are bred to only react to darker coloured dogs? I wish British sheep were like that - then they could ignore my white coloured dog but they know she is not a sheep lol.

Don't white GSD's come up just as nice as any other dog once they dried off? My white dog always looks clean once the dirt falls off even after she has gotten filthy.

I will be sticking to my coloured long coats .
I dont really care if they are not the right colour for herding sheep or they wont ever get to "crufts" so what! most people just want loyal pets to live with.
Mine have wonderful reliable temperaments are health tested and could if needed work all day they also do well at club shows under some well repected judges.
I have owned standard and long coats and different colours , each person to their own of course , but personally I have found some exellent quality in long coats and many non standard colours.

Hi

As I understand it, the white german shepherd dog was regarded as undesirable, due to it being difficult to distinguish from the sheep, particularly when there was snow. I had heard also that there is a potential link relating the white colour gene to a nervous temperament - but can't confirm this! Colour breeders in my view are to be avoided, simply for the reason that breeding from a particulary small gene pool produces health problems and doesn't do much for the welfare of the breed in mind .... in this case the gsd. That's only my opinion .... I have had a long haired white before ..... he possessed the biggest personality I have ever had in a dog, and he is very sorely missed.

I think that you'd find that 99.9% of dog owners don't care about the breed standard - a set of rules put together by a panel of bigwigs that (refer to the recent pedigree dogs exposed programme) don't give much of a damn for what happens in the dog world, it is clear that many people who put the 'breed standard' first disregard other aspects such as health just so that they can win rosettes and make money from breeding. Did you see The way some of the ‘Top GSD’s moved, absolutely appalling yet they are considered to be what all GSD’s should be like; amazing!
It is those that are absolutely transfixed with ‘breed standard’ that are destroying dogs health, look at the other breeds that were on the programme i.e. ridgeback’s being culled as they did not reach breed standard, when you consider that many of them of healthier as they cannot carry a condition that only those with the ridge’s carry. All for ‘breed standard’. Look at the difference in bulldogs, bull terriers, basset hounds – a million miles away from what the dogs used to look like again for breed standard. It was also interesting that a few years back the winner of crufts had to sit on a tablet of ice. How on earth is this a good example of a dog
The main thing in all loving pet owners’ eyes is that a dog is healthy & happy, it shouldn’t matter.
In human terms many of the comments in this forum would be known as racist

DS can be found on ridgeless Ridgebacks and on other breeds

Once a breed is `set` the standard lays out the conformation etc. This is partly to make them fit for purpose and also to ensure their health is it not?
Once we move away from these factors we are moving into aesthetics - and this is a very subjective judgement.
I first fell in love with the GSD in the image of Rin Tin Tin - short coat, black and tan - but have now come round to the opinion that it`s the temperament and character and physicality of the dog I admire, not the colour.

I'm with you all the way.
So many people who happily bring up the "breed standard" whenever this topic is raised, are anti K.C & all it stands for.
Longcoats are also seen as a "fault".

2 years ago at a WALCSS (White & Longcoated GSD) show, the judge ( A die hard K.C listed judge) admitted to "not liking the whites".
At the end of the show, she made a speech admitting her opinion had been changed & the construction, movement & temperament had been of the highest standard.
What a lovely open minded person she was to admit that she had been wrong.

The GSD shepherds the sheep, they are there to keep the sheep within set limits they drive & work the sheep not unlike Border Collies. Flock guards to not drive, or stop the sheep from leaving the area designated by the shepherd. In Germany sheep are "strip grazed"ie allowed to graze a certain area in a field & the GSDs job is to keep the sheep on the grazing area, driving them back itf they trangress.

What the Americans do with their dogs is not what the dogs were originally bred to do. After all they allow dogs to chase sheep willy nilly in training(I've seen a Rottie doing this & they called it driving !!)& not the controlled way the Germans do, always having an experienced dog with one in training

& how many of these "pet"dogs end up with HD etc becasue they are bred for the colour & length of their coat instead of being bred to be fit for purpose

Hm I don't think it was a GSD that was laid on an ice pack.

My friend has a "silver"sable she has epilepsy, HD & an digestion problem-She has a lovely temperament so that makes her a good example of the breed-no sadly it doesn't she does have a lovely character & has been spayed as she fits during her seasons(she is a rescue-previous owner got rid as they were getting a "blue"sable puppy !) Obviously bred by someone with breed improvement as their aim(not KC reg)-I think not & she is only one of many that end up in rescue because of health problems.

In the 40 odd years I've been involved with GSD rescue there have been two dogs that came from breeders who breed to the breed standard & both those breeders were willing to take the dogs back. Sadly there are pet breeders who tell puppy buyers if you want to get rid of the puppy at any time take it to the GSD Rescue ! Not just ours here in the North but all over the country

Of the 15 dogs currently in our rescue non are from breeders who health test & breed to the breed standard more than half are"non standard"colours & 14 are longcoats-nuff said

Like I have said before it has nothing to do with the dog not being recognised amougst the sheep(which are not really white as the fleeces vary from area to area & some sheep have a greyish fleece)

I know breeder who breed to the correct standard & yes they do have longcoats(a BOB @ crufts produced two LC puppies in her first litter to a German dog in Germany-they were lovely dogs very health & made brilliant pets). if dogs are line bred to Rosehurst Chris there are usually blue in the litters. Like the LCs they are from dogs that conform to the breed standard & make get pets, because they are from dogs bred for temperament & being fit for purpose & not just the colour of their coats

You won the Crufts Obedience Championships ? so you owned Gingham-she was the only one in the 80's that was a LC GSD I've got to go out now but will have a look for you & your bitch in my Crufts Obedience winners book It will be nice to see you & your bitch. She was quite a stunning worker. I didn't realise we had the handler of a Crufts Ob Championship winner on the forum