NI/Ute Health Problems Health

It has nothing to do with me, just as your questions to me have nothing to do with you. However, if you were so passionate about the dogs, I would've thought you would've made every effort to be at that talk.

Are you happy with SCs practices?

So Jk has nothing to do with you yet SC, how come?

No problem, thanks.

Answer and Question to KCJACK:

You shouldnt answer a question with a question if you expect an answe you should give one its common etiquette, unless your not comfortable sharing your opinion on JK?

That has got to be one of the most stupidest statements I've seen on here!

Why do share?

Ref Inbreeding, for those interested in the subject here is a link:

http://www.dobermanns.info/info/PEDIGREE .htm

If it is true, it seems very strange behaviour. However, in this 'world' it is hard to know who to trust. Owners have enough of a job knowing if they can trust breeders and factions and I know it is the same as you move up to the breeders and clubs. You see, even I said, "if it is true" - I'm not calling you or anyone a liar but there are so many different stories, it is very hard to know what to believe so you just wait to hear more information so that you can come down on one side or the other. There are very few people in these breeds that I feel able to trust to be completely honest with me.

Didn't he take away a bunch of pedigrees to study?:? I know this gentleman gives talks to other breed clubs as well.

:? :? :?

He did... 24 of them.

Yes he did and has spoken to SC saying he is looking at them. SC was also accused of NOT speaking to Jeff Sampson, of course who do you think organised the HEALTH talk in the first place? Certainly wasnt JK, she said the NI has no problems!!! She also spoke to him at the talk, others witnessed it but "some" obviously thought he or she was invisible!

I know - let's ring him up and ask!
I'm joking but isn't the whole thing mad?

I think they throw these silly accusations about as a smoke screen to avoid the real issues that need dealing with.
I have asked WW many times her thought on JK but refuses to comment yet has lots to say on SC doesnt seem a unbiased perspective to me.

This whole situation is irksome. There are some who believe JK implicitly and believe all the horror stories they hear about SC and her associates. There are some who believe SC implicitly and believe all the horror stories they hear about JK and her associates.......

Then there are those who don't believe stories at all, and who are reserving judgement until they see facts, figures and statistics. I am one of these people. This doesn't mean I am burying my head in the sand - as I have been accused. It means I am reserving judgement until I can see tangible evidence.

The pedigrees I have seen posted, ANYONE could have written. I could do one myself if I chose to, so IMO they don't prove anything at all. Pedigrees from the NIS come on embossed paper so you can see at a glance that the NIS endorses the information on it. Photographs can and have been used completely out of context - remember the one Kcjack posted (on another forum) in order to point out 'NIS bad breeding practices'? When the truth came out, that photo showed nothing untoward at all. In fact I haven't visited that forum since as that incident really got my goat. Although the photo was removed and SOME people apologised for (wrongly) slating the breeder concerned, Kcjack STILL never apologised for the upset she caused by using the photo in that way.

For me, that incident highlighted the sensationalism flying around. Emotions are high and people are quick to judge because they are upset by the stories they hear. I can understand that but it's absolutely VITAL to keep a cool head and sift the proven FACTS from the stories if anyone is going to get anywhere with this.

I believe DNA profiling is the only way forward if people are confused over pedigrees. Can anyone tell me how much it costs to have a dog DNA profiled? If a good number of owners agreed to this, it could sort out the accusations of pedigree-doctoring straight away. Without true pedigrees, we're stumped as even when health issues crop up, you can't see where they've come from without truthful pedigrees.

So Sally you are ok with the pic of Jks whelping bitch stood in her own crap in manky kennel? It cant be misconstrued its there in a photo to see.
Do you keep your dogs that way?
And its not just SC speaking out is it there are many others they cant ALL be liars surely as these people have had there differences also.

Hi Sally
DNA profiling costs £15.
I dont know about you but £15 off £750 per pup would seem no great hardship to the breeders.

You can`t hold embossed pedigrees for every single dog .. thats what a database is for.

Also, NIS pedigrees go back only 3 generations and TIDA go back 4 .. this is not enough to show the inbreeding in most cases (although in some cases it does).

So the pedigrees shown going back more generations are directly from the database.. so of course they are not going to be embossed.

If it`s embossed ones you want.. some NIS ones will be posted... but elsewhere.

If I have to explain, then it sort of proves the point, but....

The statement is in the negative, therefore you may have met hundreds of owners who simply didn't mention anything, therefore you won't have asked the question.

Plus I doubt the numbers of people you've asked actually amount to an informative number e.g. by using your reasoning:- On standing on a street corner 2 people walk past that are prostitutes, they are the only two people I see whilst I'm stood there, therefore I draw the conclusion everyone walking past that corner are prostitutes.

I can't imagine anyone wanting to share their dog's death details on a public forum, especially when there are known antagonists who will use that information. I'd add myself to that list, as I wouldn't share any personal information with you either.

Yes, it costs £15 from the KC. You download the form and they send you a swab kit. You do the swab, pop it in the post and they will send you back a certificate. If you request it (which you should), they will send you the full profile, which can be photocopied/scanned and given to the breed club that you are with.
http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/463


Sorry - mentioned another forum but have deleted it.

To be totally frank, yes they CAN all be liars. I'm not saying that they are - but that yes they COULD be.

The fact that there is a photo showing a dog in a kennel with poo on the floor is neither here nor there...... ANYbody who keeps dogs in kennels could have times when there is poo on the floor - it doesn't mean that the kennels are never cleaned does it?

In fact I haven't cleaned up my own dogs' poo yet this morning so I could go out into my garden right now and take a pic of my dogs with poo on the floor next to them. Does this mean my dogs are kept in appalling conditions, forced to live in their own cr*p? Of course not!

It's sensationalism! And there are far too many stories and assumptions being bandied about for me to be able to take it all seriously. And I'm sorry to say that I have seen how you personally sensationalise these issues so many times, that you are the LAST person involved in all this that I'm inclined to believe.

'Cry Wolf' seems extremely apt to me I must say. First you bring up WW's dog dying 'suspiciously' - turned out to be nothing suspicious at all. Then the two pups who died and their poor, grieving owners the next subjects of your sensationalism - again totally unfounded. Then the photo of Tania's litter you used to target her as your next victim. Again - completely wrong and totally out of order.

As I say - 'Cry Wolf' is so apt. From what I've seen so far, it's nothing but a witch hunt fed by spite and pitchfork-bearing trouble makers.

Anyone who has REAL health issues has a DUTY to reveal to other owners and breeders EXACTLY what is going on. So far all we ever get is 'all will be revealed in due course'. IMO with issues like epilepsy, addisons and VWD, THE COURSE IS DUE NOW!!!!!!

Put your personal agendas aside and for once DO THE RIGHT THING BY THE DOGS!!!! Bring the FACTS out into the open so we can move forward and try to eradicate any health problems.

I'm sure mistakes have been made on both sides of the fence, we're all human and make mistakes after all. I'm not interested in flogging anyone - SC OR JK or anyone else! My uppermost concern is in making sure our breed is HEALTHY. So lets start there - with the health of the dogs - and not with trying to 'bring down' this or that person or group.

If health issues are there - we can then work on proving the appropriate pedigrees to try and discern exactly WITHOUT DOUBT where they are coming from. Pleeease can we all concentrate on what really matters here - THE DOGS!! And put all the mud-slinging to one side until we KNOW what is really going on.