NI/Ute Health Problems Health

So are you talking about pups who die soon after birth, or pups who die between six and ten weeks old?

would you want an PM done on an older pup to find out the cause of death?

Ps,. was there really any need for the WHATEVER? at the start of your post

if it takes a pup 6/10 weeks to die i still believe the vet could have a reasonable cause of death to believe ...

i'm off to tentsmuir wi the dugs, catch up later x

I had to have a pup PTS because of a cleft palate, broke my heart, was in floods of tears before I even got to the vet with her. I know it was the best thing to do but was still very hard, she was less than 24hrs old

Jo, you might want to add that to your list, it was an NI pup.

I know it wasn't an NI, but I had to have an English Setter pup pts at 10 days old, he had been under the vet for 5 days and they couldn't pin point what exactly was wrong with him, he would blow up, then go down again, one time he would suckle and then not, I ended up hand feeding him for those last 5 days of his life.

It became obvious to me that he wasn't going to make it, he was 1/2 the size of the other pups so I had him pts. I had an autopsy done for my peace of mind, I needed to know if he had something hereditary wrong with him and I also needed to think of the other pups new owners. I would never have bred the parents again if there was something in the line, and I would have made it clear to the new owners if there were any hereditary defects, at least then they could decide whether they wanted to go ahead with purchasing the pup.

As it happened, the autopsy revealed that the pup was born with a hole in his bladder, not hereditary, just one of those things. It was an awful time but I knew, once the pup was gone, that he wouldn't know anything about it, and it may just have saved anothers life if it had been anything more sinister.

I have had pups born dead but, if something died after those first few days then I would automatically have a pm performed, I'm not saying that everyone should do it, just that I like to know if there is anything untoward happening within my breeding lines.

Sadly, I won't be breeding again, but at least I know that my lines were totally free of anything nasty.

there is the other very valid poing in having a PM done, if the problem had been viral/ or any sort of infeciton that caused death, if a PM is done, it may just save the life of the rest of the litter,
To me the pros far out way the cons

Yes breeding can be costly with vets fee's often being high,
yes I have lost one pup to cleft palate just over 24hrs old

Many Border Collies pup deaths which occurred up to 12 weeks old were believed to be Puppy Fading Syndrome - including by vets. Thanks to people asking questions, researchers started looking deeper into these deaths and discovered a horrendous and always fatal disease now known as TNS.
It is hereditary.
Thanks to the research a DNA test was then quickly developed which shows which BCs are clear or carriers.

Fading Puppy Syndrome clearly is`nt always so obvious and the progression of it is equally clearly not always what it seems.
TNS was a very recent discovery, only in the last couple of years yet BCs are a very long established breed.

Any death of a puppy beyond a realistic age of what could be considered a tragic but naturally occurring passing should be investigated imo. The findings about TNS can and does prevent many future pups from being born only to suffer and die from this awful disease.

Thank goodness people in the BC world stopped thinking puppy deaths were `just one of those things`...

Only if the vet knows what they are seeing, many vets even now don`t know enough about TNS, [ for example as per previous post ], to recognise it and that`s according to the veterinary fraternity.

Interesting link

http://www.lowchensaustralia.com/breeding/fadingpups.htm

But the pups that died have very distinctive symptoms of bleeding and tumours and not that of fading pups.
Have you lost a dog werewolf to bad health?

Totally agree Patch, thanks x

found this on the net,,


The first few weeks of a puppy's life are crucial. Puppies are fragile and they rely completely on their mother for nutrition as well as social requirements. Puppies that do not survive the first few weeks are afflicted with "fading puppy syndrome" and are called "faders." About 20 to 40 percent of all puppies born do not survive past 12 weeks of age.

Causes of puppy death in the first 12 weeks of life are generally linked to problems developed while in the uterus, problems associated with the birth process or problems around the time of weaning.

Uterine Development Problems

Birth defects, which include both genetic as well as drug or environmental causes, account for a large number of fading puppies. The easiest birth defect to detect is malformation of the head, limbs, genital or anal area as well as a cleft palate.

After birth, thorough examination of the puppy, including examination of the roof of the mouth, can help pick up on any potentially fatal birth defects. Pregnant dogs that are fed a low quality diet have a higher incidence of fading puppies. The puppies are often born weak, diseased and underweight. In very large litters, some puppies suffer from uterine malnutrition due to competition between other developing feti.

Birth Process Problems

The delivery process can be quite traumatic for both the bitch and the puppies. Extended labor and difficulty passing the puppy can result in potentially fatal traumatic injuries. Cannibalism at the time of delivery can also occur, leading to puppy death. Neglect of the newborn either due to a nervous, high-strung new mother or due to illness usually results in early puppy death.

Weaning Problems

Problems during nursing and weaning that can cause puppy death include various bacterial and viral infectious diseases, as well as parasites. Parvovirus and herpes virus are primary culprits in puppy death between the ages of 2 to 12 weeks. Staphylococcus and streptococcus bacterial infections also play a significant role in the early demise of some puppies.

Diagnosing Fading Puppy Syndrome

Puppies that do not survive beyond 12 weeks of age are generally diagnosed with fading puppy syndrome. These puppies can slowly deteriorate, stop nursing, and become profoundly weak and thin. The exact cause of the fading puppy is usually not determined. If more than 20 percent of the litter is affected, submitting a recently expired puppy for post mortem examination to determine the cause of death may be helpful in preventing additional puppy losses.

Treatment

Finding the cause of the fading puppy syndrome helps to determine if any treatment is possible. Birth defects and severe traumas are difficult to treat with a good outcome. Bacterial and viral infections can be treated, and with aggressive care, some of these puppies can survive. Expect your veterinarian to recommend hospitalization, injectable fluid support, antibiotics and assisted feedings. If the puppy does not survive, post mortem examination in order to help the remaining litter is recommended.

Home Care

Early detection of fading puppy syndrome is essential. Thorough exam at the time of birth to detect any developmental defects is important. Daily weights are also crucial in monitoring the puppy's development. Make sure the bitch is fed a high quality pregnancy diet and then a high quality nursing diet. Monitor the puppies closely for signs of trauma, cannibalism, weakness or neglect. Prompt veterinary attention for those suspect puppies is necessary.

Preventative Care

Certain numbers of puppy losses are unavoidable. Feeding the bitch a high quality pregnancy diet and keeping her quite and calm can help. Detecting early signs of fading puppy syndrome with prompt veterinary care can help reduce the number of puppy deaths.

Hi i have been reading through this tread, i have a BI who had a persitant cough the vet treated her for lung worm, which before anyone starts shouting has been very common this year due to the wet weather, just read the telegraph as there was a piece regarding this, for those of you who are unaware slugs and snails (even the trail they leave) if ingested by your dog or cat, that means even if the aninal licks if off their paws cause dogs and cats to have lung worm. I know many BI, and NI owners know this, that is he only health issue my BI has, and according to the telegraph many dogs have this. May i just say if anyone watched Martin Clunes, they will know that many K.C registered dogs have so many health issues so lets all stop this arguing about health issues in NI BI and Utes and take a good look at other breeds, i lost a Greman Shephard to Perrinanal Fistula which is common in breeds that have low slung tails i had never heard of this before i was heart broken. As for puppies dieing young please doesn`t that happen in all breeds? It happens in humans doesn`t it, so lets keep this forum as it was meant to be for general chit chat about dogs not slagging off different breeds of dogs

there are many threads on this forum about health, this one is in the non recognised breeds, so you will not find pedigree dogs being talked about here, though there was a thread recently that went into some depth about pedigree problems after the tv programe had been aired, so please dont feel that NI dogs are the only dogs discussed on here,

The point is.. this breed has only been created 20 odd years ago.. should only have been created with perfect specimans with zero health problems.. tested to the hilt and documented religiously. Therefore the NI would have no health problems at this stage of the game.

20-40% ????????????

Surely not! I would be extremely surprised if the figures for my breed exceeded 2-4%.

Mick

........ and there lies the real problem.
As has been said many times before on this and other fora, no reputable breeder of any of the "component" breeds of the NI/Ute/BI/Tamascan etc, would ever consider allowing their health-tested high quality dogs/bitches to be used in such a project. As a result, the likelihood is (although no-one really knows because those who do know aren't telling) that the "breed" was created from badly bred, un-health tested, unproven, poor quality examples of the "founder breeds." Hence the problems of both type and health apparent today.

Mick

it does seem high, I had 11 in vinnies litter with no deaths, hand reared,

the link wasnt really put up for figures/amount of deaths

As apparently some vets are of the view, that these things just happen,
it was more to give reason for puppy deaths,