Whats going on with NI pups? Controversial

I agree, all these NI fractions do the breed as a whole a disservice and particularly make British breeders look daft to the rest of the doggie world.

Was there any particular reason why none of the wolf-look-alikes were accepted by the KC?

I can't imagine it was down to inbreeding.... most of the "pedigrees" of today are totally inbred!

I find the whole pedigree/inbreeding thing fascinating. If you think about it, we as humans will have started off as mutant inbred's depending on your view of evolution that is.

Certainly, for about 300 years, Roman Egypt was a society which embraced sibling incest outright with a significant proportion of all marriages recorded being between brothers and sisters.

Also, our own laws of incest (brought about in 1560 for moral reasons only) do not include cousins yet interestingly do include in-laws! This is very different to what seems to be acceptable/not acceptable in the dog-breeding world.

It's even more interesting when you consider that dogs are apparently 99% wolf, and a wolf (and wild dog for that matter) will quite happily mate with a sibling or other distant relative.

I think the whole anti-inbreeding thing is to try and prevent undesirable traits and health problems from being exaggerated by a mating with a relative which has the exact same genes. But if, for example Mahlek is a perfect specimen, then I can see no reason why his name shouldn't keep appearing in a pedigree's lines.

The more you look into the history of in-breeding, the more you discover it's not really a clear-cut case of in-breeding is to be frowned upon. If you look at the history of the evolution modern dog, it's all been done through selective breeding, and in many cases, in-breeding.

You forget Chimayo Inuits..... Inca's breeder now calls hers that I believe.

Mahlek is a line...not a dog..Mahlek is an affix.. so all dogs are coming from Mahlek lines..

What is the relevance of if any one who attended this show, had a drink?

I know there is a lot of unanswered questions relating to the NI as a breed, but to attempt to consentantly put the owners or breeders in bad light, in any breed let alone a breed you own, to me is wrong.
It only leaves me with 1 question, why do you feel you need to do it? Are you so unhappy with the breed, you go out of your way to cause friction?
Is there nothing good you can say about the NI or in deed the very dog you own?

As for the thread i would think it would be difficult to establish the number of pups born, in any breed.Unless you are informed by all the breeders but even then there will be pups born your not aware of.

Yes, I know, sorry, what I meant to say was "But if, for example Mahlek Call of the Wild, is a perfect specimen, then I can see no reason why his name shouldn't keep appearing in a pedigree's lines."

this is reason enough not to inbreed dont you think?

the concern over the pedigree with Mahlek call of the wild was, that out of 28 dogs,, his name came up six times with a mating to a bitch called Inuka I think featuring twice on the sire and dams line

Although mahlek comes up a lot - there are quite a lot of different mahlek dogs/bitches, so wouldn't it stand to reason it may appear a lot?

Absolutely, and please don't think I'm pro-inbreeding because I'm not! I'm trying to see it from both sides.

What I'm saying is, selective breeding works both ways, and 'what if' Mahlek Call of the Wild and Inuka were both such perfect specimens that their multiple appearances in the lines were actually a good thing not a bad thing?

I'm just theorising based on what I know of the history of inbreeding generally, and if you look at the history of dog breeds in general, there would have been an awful lot of inbreeding in the beginning.

I know nothing of these dogs health histories, except that Call of the Wild lived until age 16; quite a good age.

but the point being out of 28 dogs Mahlek call of the wild comes up 6 times, ;-) as a breeder I do understand kennel names showing up numerous times, I have a kennel name myself,

Thats called inbreeding and what causes major problems within a breed. I have seen a 4 generation pedigree with 6 lines back to that dog, its awfully inbred.

I might be showing my ignorance, but weren't ALL dogs proved to be related to 4 female wolves. originally, before people got too involved. Or was that a mis-statement?

although that is something that always gets me - where did the first ones come from? Could say the same for any being, humans included.

Agreed, but just because Granddad mated with half-granddaughter doesn't necessarily mean that the resulting puppies will have greater health risks. Yes, probability says so, but as with everything probability doesn't mean 100%.

Look at man - we are incredibily inbred as a race. All breeds/races etc have to start somewhere - if the selective breeding is done correctly, the risk is eliminated.

Has anyone actually looked at the health statistics of these dogs that are being referred to, to actually determine whether their repeated use is for the health of the breed or the detriment?

I'm not seeing it. You can't condemn unless you have all the facts on the table!

There is plenty of evidence that the breed has serious health issues that need addressing yes. They are all inherited diseases, such as HD, Epilepsy, cataracts, Addisons and possible (probable) clotting disorders. Without outcrossing the liklihood of these diseases reducing is practically zero. With the founder breeder telling people the gene pool is big enough, they carry on inbreeding. Of course the founder breeder dominates the entire breed, so nothing unexpected there.

Its common sense that when dogs repeatedy go back to the same animals with 3 generations there is just nowhere to go, how can there be?

Regarding health stats. No, nobody has the stats because owners are told not to share them, and now the health section is barred from viewing unless you PAY! This is what causes the arguments, a lack of willingness to share information on health problems that arise.

Actually the last point only came about due to (mis) accusatory statements by one particular person.

However, I take your point and ask (sincerely) how many of these things can be tested for - I would happily test as far as I can afford (particularly due to being made redundant recenly). What can be checked against and how. If I had Kia and Lupi (accidental parents) tested, would I still need to test their offspring? I've said before, I am happy to test and share anything that comes up (if it does) with people who have any of Lupi and Kia's offspring.

PS: currently I'm hoping to have Kia hip scored at the same time as speying and possibly (still to check with vet) have the swabs done at the same time - is there anything I can add - I don't like my dogs being anaethesized so as much as possible in one go is ideal.

Lupi I want to get hip-scored for my peace of mind - possibly swabs at same time and.... any suggestions?

Blood clotting disorders like vWD are done by DNA swabs to the specific labs that test them. Hips are the Vets, eyes at an eye specialist, addisons I expect at the vets too. if say Kia came back with a high hip score, it would be responsible to notify the puppy owners of that score, if the vWD came back as affected or carrier, and the male was affected or carrier you would NEED to tell the puppy owners as their pup could be affected, however if all the tests were ok, I see no reason, other than if you wanted to, to let them know, as it shouldnt affect their pups at all.

Well done you!

Inbreeding means a lack of genetic diversity, which causes mutations and disease. Here is a sad article about the Tasmanian Devil facing extinction because of inbreeding:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/10/03/2050359.htm?section=australia

Thats a very good example LS.