Epilepsy in NI's Controversial

Am sorry Gem but I was aiming it at all breeders of NIs not just NIS and TIDA. Katos breeders isnt registered with either and is a breeder of Ni's. She has 2 bitches breeds them every season. Many breeders are putting something extra in every 7 generations to keep the wolfie look. Epilepsy and hip dysplasia are popping up all over the place. And there is so much in breeding going on under the pretense "line breeding" it is a ticking time bomb.

Well I have some sad news about the NI that lives near me with Epilepsy. I saw his owner this morning with a Siberian Husky pup. Her NI went into cluster fits some weeks ago, and became brain damaged as a result and had to be PTS. She has a Husky, 7mths old, ran on by a breeder, he's lovely.

Whilst she was reluctant to tell me much at the time, she says he came from a home where he was showing dominance and she took him on at 9mths. His breeding is shared by most NI's.

Oh how awful Dawn. I'm so sorry for the poor dog and its owner. :-( What is its breeding? I live in fear of this happening but so far Loki's recovered really well. I'm really sad to hear this.:-(

Is that true Crystalwater66. It is amazing how you have not been involved with dogs for many years and now had an NI for 3 weeks and suddenly aquired a phenominal amount of knowledge of the breed!!

I know for a fact that your percentages on dogs that will suffer from or be carriers of epilepsy is absolute rubbish. I put it to you that you yourself are infact an intentional breeder of epileptic dogs yet again pretending to be a new owner.

That seems a bit harsh to me

Well name and shame then Abbie!

Well then you have been told wrong, or misinterpreted the information given to you. Absolute nonsense, as others have pointed out.

Can whoever gave you such a categorical statement, [ about a dog you don`t even own... ], please work with Collie breeders ?
After all, statistical average percentages in them regarding coat colour, [ and directly related deafness ], and CEA, for instance, have been studied in depth probably for more years than when the first NI`s were a twinkle in their stray forefathers eyes, yet those experts, [ real ones ], in BC and other breeds known hereditary issues have never been able to predict the exact outcome like the `experts` you`ve been talking to about a breed of comparatively smaller numbers with apparently a handful of dogs with possible hereditary epilepsy which have only recently come to light, [ iow only recently been admitted to outside of `inner circles` ], but no one has ever been able to predict how the numbers will actually be for each litter so I`m sure such expertise would be much sought after by the lesser researchers who have been at it for donkeys years.

In other words, it can`t be predicted that way, you seem to believe average stats are a guarantee but potential averages are just that, potential - not absolute...
And until such time as there is a test to show `epilepsy clear, affected or carrier` there is no way for Abbie to know for sure if her own dog is affected or not unless her dog goes through life without ever having an epilepsy episode so no she can`t `rest assured` and you really have no right telling her that when you just don`t know.

Are you saying there is no epilepsy issue in the breed ? Are you trying to shove it back under the carpet from where the issue has crept out ?

Is`nt it just - like your a very mistaken take on hereditary genetics then making statements `as fact` about someone else`s dog based on what you have got completely wrong on the stat`s notion....

How would you know if she did or didn`t try to ? Or are you making assumptions and declaring them as fact like you have done on hereditary percentages ?

Please do share this chart with us - and we can help you to see what you have clearly misunderstood about it ;-)

Must have been very lucky to get a `leading geneticist` to do a `breeding chart for a particular case` in an Unrecognised breed and one [ breed ] for which origins, [ strays ], and lines of various recognised purebreds used to create them are far from known anyway, does the geneticist do other magic tricks as well ?

I did smile at that.

Unless of course Crystalwater is a bit closer to Sacha's breeder than she is letting on.

Patch:

exactly.

If you flip 100 coins the average head/tails prediction would be 50:50.

However if your first 50 flips turned up heads only, the remaining 50 would not be guaranteed all tails.

Even if 99 turned up heads the remaining one would still have only a 50:50 chance of being tails.

Crystalwater66:

err... no. Even I can work that out with my O-Level maths without the aid of a Leading Geneticist

lol, ahhr %ages if only gentics were so easy! You have a 50:50 change of a baby being either sex but the pop of the world (at birth) is not split 50:50.

Not sure where you got your info from but no vet or expert i know of would ever say such a sweeping statement as your bitch is clear!

Thats what I think Dawn. The rubbish that crystalwater has come out with is just typical of her, her way of speaking is exactly the same. Why else would she be taking an interest in my dog? How would she have known that the breeder did not contact me or I her when the epilepsy first became known. Also I have known her use a very similar name in the past on another forum when pretending to be someone else.

Who is Sachas breeder?

You already know as you asked me in a pm last week :? :? :?

Can you PM me again, I erased them all as box was full.

I recieved the below email from the TIDA chair women with regards to this issue. Decided to share as this is a public forum and ALL NI owners will be able to see BOTH sides. The comments in bold are my thoughts. May upset the TIDA but ho hum . . . .


Firstly, NI are not more prone to epilepsy than any other breed.

My vet seems to think so!

To my knowledge there are a dozen or so cases and it is not restricted to TIDA breeding - in fact all the cases are from dogs that were originally registered NIS or bred from NIS dogs and many of them are still with the NIS and are nothing to do with TIDA.

There are many causes of epilepsy and it is wrong to jump to conclusions and assume it is automatically genetic - although it is something we are taking seriously and taking advice from the experts.

Until March this year we knew of only one TIDA registered dog with the problem - and this was discovered while the dog was still with the NIS. At that time we had several cases within a short space of time, all but one had been "Frontlined" during the two weeks prior to the onset of the first fit. At that time Frontline had changed one of the ingredients in its 'spot on' product and this had adverse reactions across the canine world - affecting many dogs of different breeds - so it was assumed that this was the most likely cause.

In March this year we were made aware of another case - further down the line from one particular mating - of a Mahlek Bitch to a Daytona dog (the mating took place on the advice of JK).

Unfortunately two bitches from this direct line had already been mated when the second case was brought to our attention. We took advice from genetic and epilepsy specialists at The Animal Health Trust and were told that it would be ok - providing the bitches were put to non-carriers. To the best of our knowledge this is the case and the worst they will produce will be carriers.

But if you keep breeding carriers then the risk of the disease spreading is huge!

It should be noted that all other matings from the Mahlek bitch to other dogs have not had any problems - the problem stems from just one mating.

We have done a lot of research and taken advice from the KC and AHT and it would seem that in a small genepool breed we have little choice but to use these lines - but to ensure that they are only put to non-carrier dogs - and to monitor the situation.

So keep going an hope for the best? Not a good approch IMO.

Ideally we should stop these lines - but if we did that then it would rule out most of the NI population, since they are all related and come from the same original stock.

There is not yet a test to show whether a dog is a carrier or not - and as there are many causes it is difficult to say whether these cases are genetic or not.

But in the underlined section it was said to make sure to breed only with non-carriers. So if they is not way to test then how can you be certain you are breeding with non-carriers?

One reason that I am not 100% certain is that IF the first bitch in the line WAS a carrier, then it would seem that she has since been put to a male that must also have been a carrier - now that litter would be a time-bomb that should of definitely produced at least one with epilepsy, two carriers and a clear - but to date there has been nothing at all in that litter and time is running out for one to appear (since inherited epilepsy always manifests itself within the first 18 months).

As a precaution the two bitches concerned will not be bred from again - but please note that despite rumours to the contrary these bitches had already been mated BEFORE we got the reports about the 2nd case.

As a precaution! This is the least that should be done IMO.

Anyway thought i would see what everyone else thinks of this.

I have sent it to you again. I do find it a bit strange that you asked me about Sachas breeder and the epileptic lines. Which I answered in detail. Then you can't even remember the name of the person we were talking about. Very odd.

I have absolutely no problem naming her on here, as I believe that her bad practices do need to be brought out into the open. The only reason I haven't is that I understand it is not allowed to name a person who has been banned from this forum many times.

Indeed

huh? What DNA test is available for Epilepsy? as far as im aware there is one been developed.

Until there is one all this talk of Carriers is pure Guesswork, & if people are selling Pups & breeding pups using such terms then they are Fabricating.

In Collies there are Epi probs that pop up in some lines, so when talking of lines the term "as far as i know" is used Who knows what will come up wether & line bred dog or not, Out breeding can pull up just as many problems.