What makes a breed a 'breed'? Discussions

Not that I know of. I'm not a breeder - just a regular dog owner. But dogs are sold with breeding restrictions etc just as any other breed. Some dogs are kept by the breeders. Some are sold as pets. Some are sold to other breeders as potential breeding stock.

How can you have a History of the breed with records if the only surviving founder doesn't have those records ?

I wasn't around when the breed started so I don't know how responsibly (or otherwise) it was done. Whether you agree with the ethics of the origins of the breed or not, everything I have seen to do with the NIS recently (I have been a member for about 2 years) has been above board and operates as it does for any other breed.

Thats a rather silly comment as you know they don't. I don't think any breeders do! If this was the case then the staffy wouldn't be in such as mess because of BYB messing with the standard. The person who bred my Husky never checked we had her neutered neither did they care and she is hardley a good example of the breed.

A lot of the comments in red are points i made with the paragraph at the bottom. For the NI to go towards KC recognition and for the good of the breed the two groups will have to find some middle ground to work from

I'm confused ! THe comments in red are mine, in response to your comments which are above mine !

I summed up my thoughts with a paragraph at the bottom which got left out of the quote. I was saying that paragraph covered a lot of the points in red that you made.

Ah right, well the reason I left it out, because it mentioned nothing about the points I made

NO NI person has any surviving records of the beginning of the breed, so they have already failed on that point of criteria !

Also there is now no way to know how many NI dogs there are in the Country as so many are unscrupulous bred now, so how can they submit that information either when no-one knows ?

As the history is unkown of the original dogs, how can anyone submit pedigrees, unless they only intend to submit recent pedigrees :?

Not all dogs of a breed are reg with the kennel club. Also we do have records of the first dogs that was classed as an NI. Its the dogs before that we have problems with. But again does everybreed know of every dog and bitch that went into making it?

Mostly yes, as records were kept

Thing is they are not just like any other breed are they, they are unrecognised as a breed so restrictions are meaning less.

Staffies are not a breed in development and no it is not a silly comment. One of the first rules if you are attempting to produce a new breed is to make sure all breeding is done by those who are developing the breed, all pups who are not required for the breeding programme are either culled or neutered in order to stop others breeding and totally messing up any progresses there may have been.

Totally agree a breed in supposed development is totally different to an established/recognised breed.

A student of mine trains with her Standard Poodle who is also a Show dog so has the full Show clip.
I have suggested she shave her dogs chest to make sure all that hair does`nt bring poles down ;-) but I could`nt clearly make out her response, it was more strange noises than words for some reason

The problem with NIs is that previous members of the NIS who were banned or removed from their posts for bad breeding practices took their dogs, started up new NI groups and continued breeding to their own agenda.

Why? Surely a breed which is losing type due to BYB should be suject to the same rules as any breed in progress. In this thread people have said the key to a breed is conformity. If this conformity is lost then should the breed not lose KC regonition until a type is developed again.

Should these rules not apply to ALL breeds, both new AND established?

Don't understand what you mean, an established breed is established; there will be good examples, poor examples and even on occasion bad examples.

A breed in development is totally different, or should be. Those trying to produce a new breed have, or should have, a plan to work to and any dog produced or even an entire line that is not fitting in with the plan already laid down has to be removed from the breeding stock by culling or neutering, or a new breed there will never be.

If you sell, un-neutered dogs on to the GP then inevitably some will be bred from, and if you have given these sub-standard pups the name of the breed you are trying to develop, when bred they will be called by the name of this new breed but will not be within the standard the breeds developers have set.

Would not like to suggest you do not understand what is involved in the manipulation of genes to produce what is in effect an error, a step away from the norm, and then the skill required to build on this mutation to produce a totally new breed rather than a series of cross breeds or mongrels, but your replies are difficult to understand.

This is exactly what's happening with NIs, because those who left the NIS (after being banned or removed from their posts as described above), have continued to breed what they call 'NIs' but they are not bred from the quality (or even in some cases the same breed!) of dogs the NIS would have used in its breeding programme.

The NIS has an established breed (albeit young and non-KC recognised) - the problem is that there are so many other groups who are trying to breed what they call NIs but without using the good practices employed by the NIS and coming out with allsorts of unhealthy and odd-looking dogs. The difference is that because NIs are a NEW breed, and because of the people who went off and started their own NI groups, the proportion of 'good' to 'bad' breeders is lower than in an older breed. But this doesn't mean that the NIS dogs have become 'diluted' or less established - the NIS has continued with its breeding programme and is doing so successfully i.e. they are breeding healthy examples of the breed and true to type.

But just because you are on the NIS side doesn't make the TIDA dogs any worse..as from what I beleive they are all bred from the same dogs.. so please explain how the NIS dogs are so much better then TIDA when they all came from the same place