What makes a breed a 'breed'? Discussions

WILKI is hardly the font of all knowledge ;-) Some muppet prob saw the pic of an NI and though it looked like a sled breed so changed it.

As with most things on tinternet it need to be taken with a pinch of salt.

this is the post I asked what your point was??
My mals are part of my family and they work! your brothers are part of his family and they work!

Thats fine...but you can't say I am wrong..

My point was that my view of a working dog and your view are different. To me a working dog is whose purpose in the house hold is to work.

You're saying that a dog in harness is a working dog, but from my point of view unless you use the Mals as a means of transport or are a serious competitor they are not working dogs. They are pets with and interesting and worthwhile hobby.

Agree no problem at all if they are balanced and fit, it would be the same with a GSD you could use it to pull sled if you so wished but you would have to make sure it was structurally suitable which IMO it is not.

Most of the draft breeds are built almost the same height to withers to length or just a little longer in back that height, the Mal, Sammie, Greenland are all only a little off square and the Huskie although not square or cobby is described as medium. As far as I can think no draft dog is long in the back, not Newfi, or BSD can anyone think of a draft dog that does have the GSD type back and croup arrangement.

Well I beg to differ..if you ask any Sammy, greenland, Mal, sibe, eskimo dog owners..They will tell you that they WORK their dogs

Thats fine people differ but it doesn't make any points less valid, I was offering an explaination to my earlier comments.

But lets leave the whole sledding thing and draw a line under it as it seems irrelevant to the topic and disscussion. Both sides are not going to change their views and the comments are going in circles.

At the start of the post the list of criteria for KC breed recognision was this:

*Names & addresses of UK owners/importers

We have a registration UK owners for NIS but this may be problematic because of the different groups.

*Total number of dogs of the breed in the UK

Again problematic because of the different groups. The NIS has records of every dog breed by NIS reg breeders.

*Copies of pedigrees of UK dogs – at least 3 generations

We have this

*Details of Registration body in country of origin

Not sure about this one as the country of origin is the UK.

*Details of any inherited conditions prevalent in the breed
If the breed has been crossbred, when the registry closed

We have a health survey in progress.

*Brief history of the breed & photographs

We have this.

The main problem i see with bringing the NI forward it the conflict in groups. I think we need a governing body with represetatives from both groups to draw up a massive registry and pedigree. It could also set up breeding ethics for both side to elimiante problems such as eplisepsy.

BUT we know that last paragraph isn't going to happen

You do not mention that in order to be a recognized breed it must be recognizable.

I am interested that you seem to be saying that full records have and are being kept and if this is so why are they not available?

If there are full records will these not answer the questions we have been asking??

I can only speak for the NIS, as i said they do have records i have no idea about TIDA as i am not a member of this group. There in lies the problem . . .

Anyone who wants to look at a dogs records only has to get in touch with the NIS (if its and NIS dog). Most breeders supply a pedigree with the pup like any KC breeder should.

Just because SOME people can't see the type, doesn't mean the breed is not recognisable. There are many people who CAN see NIs as a recognisable breed.

NIS records are available to NIS members at the AGM.

As i only joined Dogsey a week ago i'm not sure which questions have been asked. I will always do my best to answer a question if i know the answer and to find out if i don't. I must stress though i am only one person and my views are my own not the NIS.

Reply to Sallinlancs: - Could I respectfully point out that for the rest of us mortals to understand the NI and push for their recondition it is no use having information at the AGM it should be freely available to anyone interested as it is you can't even find out the names or breeds of the foundation animals.

And if it is so available to those at the AGM why can no one ever answer a question about their development or are those attending the AGM not really interested enough in the dog to look at the freely available records.

Well one very important question that I have asked and never got an answer is what happens to the pups that do not meet the required standard, although we are to some extent at a loss to understand the standard that is published and in canine terms it does not seem to make much sense.

I haven't attended an AGM yet as they're in Essex and too far for me to travel. I am hoping to ask some questions by proxy at the next one so I'll keep you posted.

With regard to the foundation dogs, it's possible that the breeds were unknown. I have heard (not sure how reliable the info is tho') that some of the dogs used were crossbreeds of uncertain history so that question may never be answered.

They are sold on as pets (as with other breeds).

Sorry SallyinLancs that wont wash, if you are responsibly setting out to produce a new breed you know long before you start what breeds you are going to use and why, how you are going to fix the traits you are going to want and above all how to avoid serious health problems appearing in the future. You just can come across two stray dogs of unknown parentage and decide to produce a new breed.

So the breeders keep them till they are old enough to be neutered do they?