What makes a breed a 'breed'? Discussions

I asked a question in another thread and was told (rightly so) that it would be better in it's own thread. Now i know this is going to but the cat amoung the pigeons but i would genuinely like peoples (reasonalble, with no mud slinging) thoughts. The reply i got before moving was below:

'The other breeds ARE recognised by their respective KCs in their Country of origin, meaning that from the beginning of their breed, they complied with their KCs set criteria for recognising a breed, which includes submitting all records since the breed began of which breeds/dogs were used amongst other things.

With the NI, it is not recognised ANYWHERE because nobody knows which dogs were originally used, except they were 4 stray rescue dogs then Eddie Harrison added in the other 3 breeds to get a 'look' she wanted. Then there is also evidence that wolf hybrids or wolf dogs were used also.

The KC criteria list is very strict for recognising a breed, and a few of the points on that list are already impossible for the NI to prove'

Now a couple of points i would like to raise here about this, i fail to believe that all the very first dogs that were used for the Mal are recorded. This is a breed who grew up during the gold rush where there was a huge influx of european breeds mixing with the native people dogs.

Also there is no more evidence that wolf dogs or wolf hybrids were used in the NI then then any other breed.

Will have to look on this thread tomorrow as i'm off home but very interested in what people have to say.

I will also be very interested, awaiting replies, to me NI is a breed but that is just my own opinion.

Going on the criteria you mentioned above, how can any breed prove their ancestors?

To me a breed is when it is bred true generation after generation..when they ALL look the same and a vry high percentage of them MEET the breed standard..(In Mals there are a few that don't..such as longcoats etc) BUT they still LOOK like Mals..

I think the main issue with the record keeping is that way back in gold rush days there wasn't any hip scoring health testing the way there is/was at the start of the NI..
Whoever decided to try to "make" a new breed should have been very clear in what they wanted to make..and bred the best to the best..not strays and thrown in a bit of this and that..
But then I would expect all 3 original breeds to be from less than great breeders as no one would willingly give their pups to someone who wanted to crossbreed them.. so I would assume they would be from BYB with no care for them except the money..

But that is an aside..IMO a breed is something that can be recognised... as the breed it is supposed to be..

Such as.. a GSD is a GSD.. a Mal is a Mal (even the poorly bred ones LOOK like Mals).. etc etc..

Yes there is. One of Founders is recorded on TV as saying her dogs are from wolf hybrids. This other founder is now the Chairwoman of the breed society.

As an aside, yes wolves were at the origins of dog breeds, they weren't actively 'used' to 'create' a breed, but we are talking about hundreds of years ago. To use wolves now is unheard of as people have known the risks for decades, yet the NI was only began in 1987.

I think you also have to take into account that hundreds of years ago they did not have the resources or technology to keep such strict records, and their goals were to produce breeds, without considering the paperwork side of it. The KC has had strict criteria rules for a very long time, yet the NI have failed to keep these records (since 1987) even with the technology that has been around.

KC Recognition of new breeds
31-Aug-06

The Kennel Club General Committee will consider an application for recognition of a breed once there are specimens of it resident in the UK. In general, an application should consist of:

*Names & addresses of UK owners/importers
*Total number of dogs of the breed in the UK
*Copies of pedigrees of UK dogs – at least 3 generations
*Details of Registration body in country of origin
*Details of any inherited conditions prevalent in the breed
If the breed has been crossbred, when the registry closed
*Brief history of the breed & photographs

Right or wrong - I don't know but on doing a quick search sites come up [regarding Malamute history] that say that the dogs the gold rush miners took with them were mixed in. That is probably what Razcox means. I remember it on another thread and I think it was Louise that mentioned that it wouldn't have had too much effect as they were bred back out after a while etc? It was said better then that - that's just me trying to remember, which is difficult as I don't retain info well lol.

My definition of a breed, you know what it is when you see it.

Now there are examples of recognized breeds that are not of type because although their ancestry for year back says they are of the breed they are not easily recognizable as that breed. This situation exists mostly in the breeds that are in demand and are breed by puppy farms and BYB and can’t be positively recognised because they are not bred to standard.

You can make a new breed that, with care, will breed true to type but it requires a good deal of skill and care, and sadly a good deal of culling too. You can’t produce a recognizable breed by breeding crossbreed to a crossbreed of the same cross, that will never produce a breed but it will produce a group of mongrels with a similar look but no type and both good and bad points will come to the surface causing in turn health problems along with the decorative features that people are looking for,

[ off topic ]
I did`nt mean it sound like an order, my apologies if it came across that way

I don't recall saying that

Many breeds have recorded ancestors going right back to foundation stock, Jack Russell`s being one,[ which Parsons Russells were developed from ], the breeds used and the people involved in the creation of Dobe`s are documented, even breeds dating back thousands of years are documented in ways which make them recognisable today, [ Greyhounds and Sloughi`s for instance ].

So any recent breeds with such modern methods available for recording everything from founder dogs onward should be easy, especially when founders involved are still alive unlike breed developers from centuries past.
[ Whether the known origins are actually ever openly admitted to as what they really were not withstanding ].

I would be genuinely interested to see any links anyone has that details that european dogs were crossed with Mals before they were a recognised breed

That when bred to the standard set for it, you know instantly what breed it is.

Now applying this to the NI, (and no offence to anyone here) IMO some NI which are 'bred to the standard' still look like a GSD/Husky cross and nothing more. There is also still a lot of variety within the NI, you could pick 2 NI that are supposedly bred to standard but look nothing like each other. You get badly bred dogs in all breeds but you can still tell what breed they are 'ment' to be, they still look like their breed even when not bred to standard.

well there was a thread on here a while back with 'spot the pitbull', and it was very difficult to tell what breeds the other dogs were, and they were all Staffords!

It depends on which breed, some that have been recognized, as a breed for thousands of years will not have record of their development, some even go back beyond the written word. However in long established breeds records have been kept of the ancestry of each animal and they as a breed have, over time, been modified to suit the purpose that man wishes to put them to. If you want a dog to do a particular job you breed and cull to encourage this ability.

Apart for the Toy breeds all dogs where taken up or developed by man to do the work required by man and it made sense to keep check of the ancestor of a dog so that required traits could be bred in and unwanted ones bred out.

Companion dogs and those bred purely for the way they look is a relatively new concept, our forefathers could not afford such luxury, if you fed a dog you expected it to work. Over recent times dogs have moved from being tools of the trade to becoming companions and family members and in doing so have changed or have been changed from the working dog of not so very long ago to the household pets.

These changes have been recorded and drawings and photos trace the way a particular breed has change or remained the same. Since the turn of the last century people started to show their dogs along with their stock and for the same purpose, to buy and sell or prove your husbandry. I had sight of a very old Crufts catalogue a while ago and the dogs were entered along with their price.

Think record keeping has become much more reliable since the end of WW2 and most breeds have exacting and detailed records of ancestry and health from that time, some, of course have details going back way beyond that though.

Dog breeds are not fixed they evolve and develop or in some cases decline, dogs may be treated very differently in the UK to the way they are treated in their country of origin, my own breed is an example it outwardly looks very like those in Norway but our dogs lead a very different live and will not face culling if they are unable to do the work they are bred for.

That was because most were very poor examples, the proof if needed that to produce good animals needs good breeders who will care for the breed and breed to standard.

Unfortunately, Staffie are one of the breeds that has been taken up by the BYB who will put any bitch to any dog the only criteria is that they should be of different sexes nothing else matters and when you do that you no long breed dogs to type. That thread was also a good example of what happens if you do not care about your breed.

Back at work again and can reply to the posts!!

Sorry Malady i can't give you the link to the website as it was in the rather old fashioned form of a book!:-o
I love the northwest coast history and wrote my dissertation on the native people of the northwest and the effect the white made had on the culture and artwork. So it would take me ages to write down every book or article i have read. One of my favs though was "the cruellest miles' by Gay & Laney Salisbury, it was focused on the serum run to Nome but had lots of info on the history of both the area and sled dogs. There is more about the husky then the Mal but it would be impossible to write anything about sled dogs in the north with also talking about the Mal.

Another fav is 'Call of the wild' by Jack london, i did an illustration project on this and to get the big marks you had to not only know the book inside out but also confirm the facts of the book. While London did romanticise ALOT, the hard facts of the book are correct. Many dogs that were not northern or sleding breeds where taken north and sold to ignorant gold seekers. The people selling these dogs were speculators and didn't care about the dogs or the people they sold them to. Any dog that had a desent bulk and coat was taken, such as the GSD and other shepherd breeds. These dogs were then often loose to breed with the native population of dogs as the whole area during this time was in a sort of chaos.

Sorry about the essay! I really do love the history of this period and place.

It didn't sound like an order at all!

It was a vaild point and has raised an interesting thread.

This is incorrect. It's the narrator who says they are from wolf hybrids. The lady in question asserts that the interview was heavily edited to cause sensationalism and that the finished piece was misleading.

Many NI factions are still crossbreeding so this is not surprising. However, NIS registered NIs look as much alike as other established breeds. Of course some of them have breed faults but they are still recognisable as NIs.

any proof of these facts?

One group who now have named their dogs BI are openly adding other wolfy breeds to their lines. Their dogs are not called NI.

The other NI group are not crossbreeding, and their dogs are pure NI, but they have openly stated that they may reintroduce dogs of the founder breeds in the future to improve the gene pool. And after I found out the extent of inbreeding to get NI type, I fully support their plan to do this if it is necessary, for the future health of the breed.