can someone explaine the breed standard of NI {type} dogs to me,, Discussions

Apparently not, slight bit of misinformation The legs apparently are to be longer than the body is deep, strange way to put it but I now understand.

Not sure why the bit about angulation and well let down hocks is under the body section, but perhaps that is an error in transcribing too.

Still have some problem with the length of rib and a spine on that length is a bit of a worry, the whole document is not well written and lots of information is left out i.e. should the dog have a stop, a moderate stop or no stop. When you read a standard you should be able to picture the dog, with this one I can’t but had fun with the leg bit till someone burst the bubble and put me straight.

Any standard produced just so the breed has one is not a lot of use unless it is developed by all interested parties because if it is not then some will ignore it.

I think there are so many variations of the standard,, but clearly its still needs work,,as you say an image should be clear in your head when reading the standard,, but I just cant picture this dog,, x

Blimey, that's a massive range! Don't think that's from the official standard though.

It's usually written as height:length, so should be 9:10. No not long, that's normal canine proportions ie. slightly longer than high and what I would expect in a good Rottweiler. GSDs are longer than this.

The loin is the area between the end of the ribs and the start of the pelvis. In order to have a short loin, the dog has to be well ribbed, ie. ribs extending well back along the body. A short ribcage with long loin would give weakness to the torso. The length of the loin is dependent on the extent of the ribcage not the body proportions.

Don't think that's from the official standard either... least I hope not. I like the image of a spider

Yes, a common mistake. The hocks are joints, so can't be long or short. What is probably meant is short rear pasterns (the area between hock and foot) which is usually written as 'hocks well let down'

Edit: Just to add that the well-let-down-hocks is a feature of selective breeding in domestication. The wolf has rather long rear pasterns, obviously the natural construction for a canine.

I think its JoedeeUK who can do the diagrams side of things ?

must go and check the standard then give her a shout, thanks patch,



I think so much confusion comes from the fact,, so many diff standards seem to be out there for them,

Here is the NIS breed standard:

General Appearance
A dog of medium build, athletic but not racy. Slightly longer than tall (as 10-9), with leg length slightly longer than overall depth of body. Oval bone is neither too heavy nor too light.

Head
Not too broad, skill slightly domed. Muzzle slightly longer than skull, strong and gentle tapering. Lips close fitting and always black. Cheeks flat. Nose black (winter/snow noses acceptable) and nostrils large. Scissor bite.

Eyes
Oval, forward facing and set at a slightly oblique angle. Any colour or colour combination acceptable.

Ears
Set fairly high, not too large and carried erect.

Neck
Strong and muscular with a well defined nape.

Shoulders
Moderately sloping. Elbows fitting close to chest, which must not be too broad

Body
Top line level, ribs well back. Loin short and deep with no exaggerated tuck up. Croup broad and fairly short but not steep. Tail set fairly high and reaching to the hock, carried down when standing, may be lifted when excited. Curly tails considered a fault. Good rear angulations. Short hocks.

Hind Feet
Oval and may have five toes, dewclaws permitted.

Fore Feet
Round, pasterns upright but flexible. Pads black and well cushioned with hair.

Coat
Dense double coat, slightly harsh in texture, heavy coats permitted but long, flowing and silky coats considered a fault. Well-defined ruff and breaches. Tail bushy.

Gait
Easy and far reaching covers the ground.

Size
Bitches 22 inches min., dogs 24 inches min. - overall balance more important than size.

Colour
Pure white or any shade of grey and sable through to pure black. White faces and dark masks are permitted but any colour change should be subtle.

Temperament
Friendly and placid, never aggressive or showing any guarding tendencies. Will submit when challenged.

Faults
Gay tails (curly). Long, soft, silky coats. Patchy/pinto or black and tan colours.

thanks sally, just out of noseyness,,, would you change anything on it?

oh and are there dogs up to 32" tall within the breed?

In all other standards I have read (I admit I haven't read all of them ) there is always a note on the bottom which states - male animals should have two apparently normal testicles fully descended into the scrotum. I notice the NI standard does not. I know the NI has a history of mono-orchidism, is this omission on purpose

On that note, I meant to ask this before, but kept forgetting.......... the NIs that have been found to only have 1 testes, are they bilateral cryptorchids or were they true monorchids ?

I'm neither knowledgable nor qualified enough to recognise when something should be changed on a breed standard TBH.

When I first saw it, I thought it seemed a little odd that there was no maximum height, but perhaps the bit about overall balance being more important and the length to height ratio covers that? Also, as Pod pointed out - perhaps the 'short hocks' bit should be worded more accurately?

I'm sorry I don't know.

It WAS included and was used for the show last week. I'm almost certain it still stands as it does for other breeds but the website I transcribed from is undergoing some changes and I guess it's been missed out as an admin error. I have sent a message to the Administrator concerned so they can check it out. Thanks for pointing it out.

Forgive my ignorance but I'm not familiar with these terms. I do know of a NI whose testicles finally descended on his third birthday (not sure if it was both or whether one had descended earlier).

thanks sally,

Monorchid is an incorrectly used term for a dog that only 'seemingly' has 1 testicle.

Monorchid actually means a dog that was only born with one testicle.

Cryptorchid is a dog that retains one (bilateral) or two (Unilateral) testes, which may or may not descend at a later date.

SO the dog you mention would fall into the latter (Cryptorchid).

High set, and may be lifted? How on earth can it be anything else if it is set high?

I thought they could be raised? What is gay then?

Thanks Sally

thanks dawn,, I think there are a few very grey areas in the standard,
my worrie is how do breeders breed to standard if the standard itself makes no real sense,

I think 'set fairly high' refers to where the tail STARTS(?). The tail should be straight, although when excited the dog may lift his tail in a sickle shape. Gay tails are CURLY i.e. have a permanent curl in them.

Gay is when there is too much curl like a Husky would have.

And the tail is high but should be laid flat like a GSD not a husky who carrys there tail on the back unless very peed off!

To most of us in the dog world gay tailed means carrying it over the back (or at least it does in gundogs Istand corrected id I'm wrong)

A husky doesn't carry the tail on their back, it should be carried as a sikle curve, you may be confusing them with an Akita !

I'd never heard of a tail being 'gay' until I read the NI standard

In huskies, the tail carried over the back is a sickle curve, and in Malamutes it's a waving plume.