Greyhound racing industry breeder disposes of puppies that wont chase! Controversial

I beg your pardon...... what on earth are you talking about...

Do not read into or make an issue out of a statement that meant what it said.

NOTHING MORE!!!!!! for goodness sake....

It was these two statements before that, that more or less said that nobody would be that stupid, therefore implying that ZB must be mistaken, as no-one would dare do that ! JMO

WRONG!!!!!!!!!! I was merely explaing my reason for my first statement.

By the way.can you clear you pm box....

Aah right, as I said it was just my opinion, how I read it, it wouldnt be the first time I've misinterpreted something

Bleddy PM box, where do they all come from ?! :?

Did a huge reply but puter shut down on me and I lost the lot. Going to do a shortened version because I'm tired.

Firstly I did respond to Borderdan and Jackbox about their shock/horror at my comments about breeding and comments about not helping my cause by making such statements.

Don't remember exactly what I said but it was along the lines of I'm expressing an opinion and very unlikely to change it unless people start to become a lot more responsible and dogs stop dying. I personally get very offended when people start on about their 'bought' pet. Maybe I just have a conscience...

I wasn't referring to greyhounds. All breeds come up in rescue kennels and all breeds and cross-breeds run out of time after 7 days. There is no excuse to 'buy' a dog. None whatsoever. But I believe there may be another thread on this very issue?

But the bottom line is that you won't see it my way and I certainly won't see it yours. It doesn't matter in the scheme of things.

Although I did get a good giggle at the "rubbish" post and the subsequent one listing what I think and how my responses are 'aggressive' so thanks!

Am getting confused whether it was this thread or the other that mentions me being an activist? If so then thank you - being called an activist is a huge compliment because it means I do things for my beliefs and not sit on my bum hiding behind a puter all day Or was it meant to be insulting? If so, it really isn't and please do think up better insults than that or "extremist"... ;-)


Anyway enough timewasting... the main point was about greyhounds in Northern Ireland.

I've done a huge amount of undercover as well as rescue work in the North and if you know where to look, what I most certainly deem as 'cruelty' and 'immoral' practices aren't hidden at all. That even includes illegal practices. They aren't hidden and I'm sorry to the person who wrote that I didn't see it sooner as I would have 100% backed up what you wrote and the doubts cast on your honesty would have been less irritating.

The people who do know about what happens to the hounds in racing in NI accept it as 'normal'. The people who don't know are oblivious because its not highlighted. The example described is not surprising to me at all having seen things like this for myself and heard accounts from other people on what they have seen.

For years I spent a lot of time over there researching, speaking and trying to get some press on the issue. Largely unsuccessful on the latter part unfortunately. Although I did take part in a radio interview for a station in belfast after David Smith and the presenter was in complete denial about what went on with greyhounds stating several times "we are a nation of animal lovers" - she couldn't comprehend this was happening in her own backyard. I think the station thought I would be takling about Seaham but I took the opportunity to use my research there as examples to her absolute horror.

The 'authorities' are well aware of what goes on - thats another long story and its all very complicated. Nothing is straightforward except that the odds of a greyhounds no longer racing getting out alive are much lower than anywhere else.

Greyhounds aren't pets - they're livestock and to see a greyhound as a pet in NI is rare although this has started to change over the last few years.

The bottom line is that NI is a very complex area when it comes to greyhounds. It doesn't come under any regulatory body for racing - the NGRC or IGB have no power therefore you effectively have flapping as the whole greyhound racing scene.

Rehoming isn't something that happens as such. UNwanted greyhounds are handed over to the dog warden for immediate destruction. Dogs are drugged. Injury rates are huge due to the state of the tracks . Dogs are also killed in dreadful ways. I can email links to different articles and go into more detail - if anyone is really interested in the situ in NI, PM me.

Need to say my info/research is a bit out of date given that I havent' done anything in NI for about 2 years now. I eventually found it just to difficult.


The point is that things happen all over (and I'm including Scotland in this) that are illegal and morally wrong to animals. Prosecution is another thing - even David Smith wasn't doing anything illegal by killing the dogs. However few people would agree with his practices. David Smith didn't undertake his activities in private.

I am finding this thread a bit odd because one minute its discussing greyhounds and the next its goes off on a tangent to dog fighting and horse racing and other issues that are irrelevant. I'm pondering this and wondering if it keeps going off track simply due to lack of knowledge or understanding of some of the contributers who feel they have to add something to put the boot in but their lack of knowledge and understanding means they can't do anything other than drag irrelevant issues into it???

Just an observation but I daresay the 'opinion police' will be along any second to tell me how I should think/not think

Aunty Amanda
Well done you for doing the work, it must be so difficult to see all of that and then when you speak to people it falls on deff ears

For a while I dated a guy in scotland whos family had racing grayhounds (at the small tracks) they were some of the good uns - and always bosted about the fact that when their dogs were too old to run they retired them into the house
they also rescued dogs from other people who wouldnt run and got them to run
But wihtout them thinking they were doing anything wrong they still did things I considered cruel
To get better odds in the next race a dog was overfed or had a smear of vasaline in its eye so they couldnt run so well
they lost quite a few dogs that way cos the dogs coulnt see the corner and smashed into it
for them a broken bone in a grayhound ment it got PTS - no money for treatment
again - they were the nice ones - many people just drugged the dogs cos these were not licenced tracks so there were no drugs tests for the dogs

also the practice of blooding the dogs sickend me. Using a ferret to corner a poor rabbit and then chucking it in live with the dogs for them to rip it to shreads
I never saw it cos I didnt go to the races but I was told on some courses the 'hair' was a live or freshly dead rabbit!

I had nothing for or against the racing untill I dated this guy
and he loved his dogs with a pasion and saw nothing wrong with what he was doing cos that was what everyone else did

AA, if you take the time to trawl this forum, you will see "going of track" is the norm on Internet forums.... we do it all the time, we go off, come back, and go off again... but it all ends the same way.

I also must state, yet again, that I did not cast any doubts on anyone's honesty.

My statement was for the perpetrator of the crime, no hidden agendas

And I stand by it... someone admitting to such a crime is "foolish"

Ok , so we are talking NI , not the mainland.... but cruelty ns secretively usually go hand in hand... ofcause their are always exceptions , and from what you say, NI is one of them.

again I ask you

Just how many dogs do you think rescues can take, there is not an unlimited number of spaces for any breed of dog, there is not a limitless pot of money either! Rescues in this country are full to bursting already with thousands of dog being pts every day and you want them to take even more?

It might just be paper to you but money is needed by those rescues you knock to help all the dogs and the records are supposed to be kept by those in the industry to be able to trace the dogs – they are failing the dogs not the rescues or those anti racing.

But there are not enough homes or places in rescue to cater for all the dogs – the overbreeding is the huge problem. There are way too many dogs to be catered for – what do you suggest happens to those dogs that cannot get into rescue because they are full, should they start ‘getting rid’ rid of all the other breeds to cater for an industry that is purposely overbreeding?

Yep your right I don’t give a damn about the dogs – its all about them money Im making on them! I would much rather they go to rescue than what else happens to them – but again there is no where near enough rescue spaces or money (yep that word again) to accommodate the amount that are discarded every year. Rescues work on a tight budget in case you didn’t know and to create more spaces is impossible without financial backing – who’s responsibility is that if not those breeding the dogs, owning the dogs and making money off the dogs?

You know what your right its all my fault these dog and yep all I do is sit and moan, Ive never done anything to try and help – obviously fostering, rehoming, home checking, transporting, is nothing. Campaigning, trying to educate etc is worthless. Apparently what I should be doing is taking all the dogs, building my own rescue, placing everyone available in a home immediately and thanking the industry for allowing me to do it!

The whole problem is that many (including myself – although you seem to know better) have tried to help but the industry has had years to make changes but refuses to do so.

Im surprised that anyone can totally blame rescue and those who oppose the mass production of these dogs and attribute no fault on the industry or those get rid of these dogs regardless of how.

What would help the dogs it to stop breeding them in the huge numbers that they are now.

Please explain what you think my agenda is – instead of just accusing me of having one!

Thank you Dawn at least someone it see that there is a problem and that naming and shaming is a way to help these dogs. Yes I think the owners should be given the chance to help with cost, in fact I think they have a moral duty to, or even take them into the home (Im not sure how many would but even a few would help).

Someone somewhere has to take responsibility for these dogs and I really don’t understand why it should solely placed on rescue or those against racing. Surely the numbers that are being bred has a place to play in all this?

I cannot use the computer as much now but would have to say, when Im being accused of causing these problems by people on these boards I think I would be better of spending my time elsewhere anyway.

Exactly maybe trolling the roads for abused and neglegted greyhounds would be a better use of your time

LOL

THOUSANDS

All Greyhounds or all Dogs.


Lets be nice and take your statment at the least you state2000 a day.

That makes 6 million dogs PTS evey year.

Makes Dave Smith look like a Saint

Thanks for that. Interesting. Scotland is a weird area when it comes to racing and I don't always 'get it'. Its very difficult to get info from the inside as the scene is so small and so complex - probably due to the high proportion fo flapping tracks to the rest of the UK. There is so much more I need to learn. Can I ask which area the track was in? I'm doing some digging at a flapping track at the moment and am wondering if its the same one.

The worst reports (or should that be the oddest reports) come from Stirling area. But in general a lot of the practices in Scotland are still stuck in the days prior to the mass commercialisation of greyhound racing.

One track was shut down because they actually used a live hare on the lure and were busted by the SSPCA. Again the big difficulty is that people don't see their practices as 'wrong'.

Anything you can tell me about the flapping scene is of interest and thank you!

Yes NI is one of those areas (for greyhounds definitely)however the penalties for crimes against animals are so ridiculous that there is little deterrent for those who do abuse/kill animals therefore some people just don't care. Even my guy who drugged his dog with coke got a ridiculous fine where I would string him up and remove parts of his anatomy.

Also, although off topic, if you look at the 'official' stray dog figures and the ones pts, they are disproportionate to the size of the rest of the UK. I'm sure its something like 3000 dogs pts after 7 days in NI alone whereas the rest of the UK is something like 5000 so you can see there is a huge issue with dogs there anyway.

I don't have the figures to hand as I'm on the wrong pc for info but if you want to look at this more, its on the Dogs Trust website.

It has to be said these figures aren't accurate as such and only cover the dogs who've done their statutory 7 days and not those who are handed to the dog warden, pts by vets or killed by other means.

Spot is not the one causing the problem, its those who are over breeding and not cleaning up their own mess which is caused as a result.

Why on earth should the onus be on rescuers to smile sweetly and say ` yes we`ll use all our tiny funding to take the thousands of overbred unwanted dogs off the racing industries hands every day so that its fine for them to just keep on doing it because the people who do give a damn will pick up the pieces time and time again for the industry which has no intention of stopping the disgrace that`s involved in so many aspects of racing while those doing it get off scot free because they know others will help the dogs that they relentlessly churn out and mistreat in many cases` ???

Its the racing industries mess and its damned well time they cleared it up themselves, they must be made to pay for the upkeep of every single dog they produce for their industry, they must be made to pay their own rehoming bills, their own vet bills, and made to stop the sheer barbarism which exists in their so called sport.

Lets put it another way - how about a thousand people in your locale take their dogs to you one day and say ` we don`t want them anymore but we know you think rescuers should happily take on other peoples baggage so here you go, a thousand dogs for you to feed, house, and give medical care to, we`re all off to get new dogs instead of this lot.

Would/could you help every one of those dogs ?
Or would you say `hang on a minute, these dogs are your responsibility, [ to the people dumping them on you ], you can either pay for their keep while I sort something out for them or you can take them home again, I`m not your dumping ground`...

ok Ill ask the question again you dont want the dogs killed
where do you all want them to go????
rescues are set up for unwanted dogs,I am not I dont call myself a rescue so people wouldnt assume to bring dogs to me If the rescues dont want the dogs why are they set up to rescue them??????I didnt say spot was a problem I said people who name and shame the trainers under the guise of trying to help the dogs are causing the dogs to be dumped therefore perpetuating their own agenda as they can then say look they are bad people,you cant do it half way you either want to help the dogs or you dont,
my question is what would you like the trainers to do with the dogs,they are not going to stop breeding them as then there would be none to race so the antis need to accept that fact and actually help the DOGS instead of making things worse for them by alienating the general public and the trainers

Now dont anyone take this the wrong way, but rescues, particularly those dedicated to Greyhounds, have in fact set themselves up. People who want rid of these Dogs have an "outlet" for want of a better word, they know rescues will take them, therefore they will have less responsibility in finding them homes themselves.

This is in NO way a slur on rescue, but give an inch and many people will take a mile. If rescues said no, or maybe helped to locate owners of these dogs, maybe they would have to sit up and take a bit of notice? I really do believe, in fact I know so many owners rely on the trainer to rehome the dog, and if told the dog has been rehomed, well then they probably take it as the truth.

I know I have said this before, but for the cost of a couple of phone calls, the benefits of finding many Dogs owners while racing could well give a financial boost to such rescues. Approaching these people, telling them their dog is in rescue, giving them a chance to contribute may be a big help, then if they refuse, I would certainly name and shame them, owner, trainer, all known details, and Id make damn sure it was spread everywhere I could.

I appreciate rescues have a huge task, not only Greyhound rescue, but it really doesnt help when they complain about owners and trainers, but do nothing to bring to attention these people in public light, or at least give them the benefit of the doubt and ask them to help with the homing or funding the homing of a dog they have owned. Why should rescue do this? because they are the ones taking the Dogs, and like I say, many trainers will expoit that.

I want the industry to force those who breed the dogs to do exactly what they are supposed to do - to ensure the dogs are homed properly when they are retired or don`t make the grade.

This is what the industry is allowing to be flouted every single time each dog is dumped - including in to rescue - or illegally slaughtered.
*I believe part 6 of the rules should be abolished, all that does is give an easy get out which gives licence for the over-breeders to just carry on doing what they`ve been doing because they can just have the surplus dogs killed by claiming they could`nt find a home. Well if there are not enough homes, which we all know full well is the case, then they should stop breeding so many dogs, end of.

"Rule 18 - Responsibility of owner

1. The NGRC Stewards shall hold the last registered Owner to be responsible for the welfare of a Greyhound and also for making acceptable arrangements for his/her retired Greyhound as follows :-
1. The Greyhound be retained as a pet, or
2. the Greyhound be boarded at a Licensed Kennel, or
3. the Greyhound be boarded at a Kennel licensed by the local authority, or
4. the Greyhound be found a home through the Retired Greyhound Trust, or
5. the Greyhound be sold or found a home, responsibly, or
6. if it is necessary for the Greyhound to be euthanased either on humane grounds or because none of the above options are available, the Owner ensuring, subject to Rule 58, that such euthanasia is carried out by a registered Veterinary Surgeon.

2. A registered Owner shall inform the NGRC if there is any change in ownership of a registered Greyhound and whether or not it is intended to enter in any Trial or Race again (see Rule 20).
A registered Owner shall also report, or arrange for a licensed Trainer to report on his/her behalf, the retirement of a Greyhound which it is not intended to enter it in any Trial or Race again, or any subsequent "Comeback" from a previously-reported retirement, to the Racing Manager of any NGRC Licensed Racecourse and shall be given and retain a receipt in the form of a copy of a Greyhound Detail Report prepared under Rules 195(ii) and 194(vii).

3. Failure to give notification under Rule 18(ii) within 28 Days of the Change of Ownership shall result in a penalty being levied and may result in the NGRC Stewards prohibiting an Owner from registering Greyhounds unless the Owner is able to satisfy the Stewards that any future retirement of a Greyhound in his/her charge will be strictly in accordance with Rule 18.

What does Rule 18 mean?

Rule 18 basically states that from the point a greyhound is registered, the owner(s) are held responsible for the welfare of that greyhound. The owners must inform the NGRC at any stage when the greyhound leaves the owner(s) care, within a 28-day period. Failure to do so will lead to a fine. A Steward's Inquiry may impose heavier penalties and in some cases the Stewards may decide that an owner should no longer be able to register greyhounds for NGRC racing and that a trainer's licence be withdrawn.

Consequences
Failure to pay fines imposed by the NGRC, result in registered persons being included on the NGRC Forfeit List - a record of arrears published by the Stewards in the NGRC Calendar. The penalties for being submitted to the Forfeit List are as follows.

* A person will not be able to register greyhounds for racing at any NGRC licensed racecourse.
* Any NGRC licence granted to such person is suspended indefinitely."

Yes, and they have enough to cope with as it is looking after countless numbers of dogs without an industry deliberately breeding thousands of dogs they know will never race or which will have a short career before being offloaded and the breeders not taking responsibility for the dogs they have bred. Rescues are not supposed to be places where an industry can take up a third or more of the spaces because they refuse to be resonsible themselves over the homeless numbers they are the direct and deliberate cause of.

Then why say what you did to Spot ? Should Spot take them all on instead ?
How ?
Where ?
Who will fund it ?
Not the industry that`s for sure...

Rescues are not set up as a dumping ground for an industry which is supposed to take care of their own, why should the industry get away with their relentless and deliberate over breeding at the cost of other dogs lives ?
Who do you think pays for the dogs` care ?
Did you know in UK rescues are run purely on donations from the public ? They are not funded by the government and most are run by unpaid volunteers because there is`nt the money to pay wages, also most volunteers who do home checks for rescues, and transport runs to collect dogs to get them to the rescue in the first place, pay for their own fuel which in UK is horrendously expensive, something which if the rescue orgs had to pay would be enough to mean they would have to take in even less dogs because there would`nt be the money to feed them - most rescues here are literally run on a shoe string and prayers, and an industry deliberately breeding and dumping at the rate that they do literally stretches those shoe strings to breaking point.

Thats just not true, the industry has always done it, and will continue to do it because they get away with it, there are just more people who know about it now.

Agenda ?
If not wanting to see dogs killed, dumped, bludgeoned to death, drowned, ears hacked off to get rid of tattoo evidence, and wanting to see an end to the suffering the industry causes is an `agenda` then its a worthy `agenda` as far as I`m concerned.
Fact - there are bad people in the industry, very bad people.

Trust me when it comes to people being involved in rescue there is no half way, and much of what rescue is about is education as well as transporting, rehoming, fostering etc, and what the industry needs to learn, and those who support that industry, is that they cause a massive problem and its the dogs which suffer because of it - and yes, the rescuers who cry themselves to sleep night after night because they did`nt have room for a dog which meant that dog being killed - that`s what happens when there are more dogs than there are homes and rescue spaces for them.

Ideally if the industry as a commercial thing were banned so that there was no money in it, yes many would stop breeding because it would`nt be worth their while financially.
Those who would continue would therefore be the ones who would race as a hobby same as agility and flyball are hobbies.

What you mean is the anti`s should just shut up and keep quietly bailing out a multimillion industry day after day ?
Not a chance.
The industry created the problems long before rescues ever got involved and long before anyone ever spoke out about what goes on, so please don`t lay the blame on the anti`s door step the fact is if the industry were squeaky clean and all the dogs they are supposed to be responsible for were properly cared for, there would be nothing for anyone to be anti about in the first place.

And yet when any do they are called extremists or whatever and are treated the way we have seen on this thread because they are trying to name and shame those who don`t do right by the dogs they have bred...

Now if the industry would fund the phone calls and staff to make those phone calls to try and trace the industries bad apples who are not doing the right thing maybe more rescues could actually afford the time and manpower to do tracing as well as feeding dogs, paying vet bills, paying for kennel premises etc etc etc :?
Its a little naive I think to not consider how little funding so may rescues have to exist on without hoiking up massive extra phone bills as well plus finding extra people around the country to be doing the tracing task when most rescues are crying out for volunteers to just do an hour a week to walk a few dogs in a rescues care :?

They dont name and shame Patch, they shout and rant and want everything banned!! It wont work that way.

Its not naive at all Patch, not at all, places like the Dogs Trust have huge funds behind them, they could make an effort if they really wanted to, and the way I look at it is, if they spent £1 on phonecalls and recived a donation of about £50 from just one owner, that would keep a fair few Dogs for a fair few days!

When I did Lab rescue, I always contacted the breeders of Dogs when we got papers, if the previous owners hadnt done so, in a lot of cases we were offered a donation by the breeder, or they offered to help with the rehoming of the dog, this SAVED funds for other more needy animals. We also asked for a small donation (not compulsary by any means) from the owners who were wanting rid of their dog for whatever reason, Id say 6 out of 10 times we got something, evern if it was only a tenner it all helped.

Don`t get me wrong, I don`t disagree with you that in a perfect world every rescue would be able to do that but many small rescues just don`t have the manpower to do it and literally can`t afford the extra phone bills which would be a gamble for if anyone did come forward to take responsibility for a dog they`ve bred.
I know there are breeders who are devastated to find out a dog they`ve bred has ended up in a rescue, including one who was on the phone to me in tears for a couple of hours in the middle of the night having found out one of hers was in a pound and only had a day or two left on the 7 days before being destroyed, [ she collected him the next morning so he is safe and sound ;-) ], but sadly she is in the minority :?

Now if chipping were made compulsory and breeders had to be registered on the chips and on a breeding database, by that I mean a National one for all breeds and which had legal powers, it would make tracing them a lot more efficient but I`d like to see everyone who breeds, [ any breed ], have a legally enforceable responsibility to pay for the upkeep of any they have bred which end up in rescue for any reason if they can`t take them back, [ though my view is that no one should breed unless they are willing and able to take back every single pup they have bred and if they can`t guarantee that they should`nt be breeding at all, jmo ], and that the NGRC perhaps should be given the bills to pay for the care of dogs registered to their industry - that might make them take the problem more seriously if they then had to pay out as an organisation and be the ones to have to try to recoup the money from the breeders in racing.

While there are rules about it in racing they are just not enforced and its far too easy for those involved to get away with things, the industry itself has no backbone and I really believe that the few paltry slaps on the wrist they dish out now and then are nothing more than for appearance` sake :-(

Now you see I dont have a problem with compulsary chipping at all, Id be up for that and yes every single dog thats bred!

I appreciate what youre saying about smaller rescues, but that in itself may lend itself to critisism by saying they cannot afford a couple phone calls, but are taking in dogs on a continuous basis, which need feeding, vaccinating and neutering etc.. where does the few pence for a phone call break the bank?

I hope you can see where I am coming from, I dont in any way blame rescues, they are doing a wonderful job, but I just feel that perhaps if more effort was made in locating owners and breeders and trainers, they may well benefit from more funds, and given the fact that those that operate "behind closed doors" will not want their name all over the place for refusing to help a dog they have bred, owned or trained, this type of "contact may well benefit the dogs and the rescues that take them in in the long run.
Dawn.

The industry is made up of people good and bad some care some dont,the antis are making it worse in my opinion
no industry is squeaky clean just like some rescues are not squeaky clean
help or dont but dont make it worse,I after reading this thread would in no way support the antis and I love dogs and im not stupid how many others have they lost with their crazy talk