German Shepherds - suitable for agility? Agility

I`ve had GSD`s for over 40 years so I`m a tad prejudiced . They`re loyal, intelligent, beautiful, tireless and affectionate to their handlers. They do however need good socialisation and dedicated owners who are willing to put in the time with them. I`ve always had rescues - all bar one who was a right madam - but if you want to show I suggest you go to a reputable breeder who will provide advice afterwards. The GSD rescues are full of beautiful dogs who have been bought by people who don`t understand the breed, and the commitment involved. Good luck with yours - they are super dogs and I`m sure you won`t regret it.

I had a very different experience with GSDs my girlie Nia, was an angel, she wasn't a handful at all, she was obedient and listened intently. I loved having her, I'd have a GSD again in a heartbeat.....I would say that collies are more demanding...but thats just my opinion!

thanks mel, like i said before its really between the 2 breeds - collie or shepherd - i was looking in to getting a mini dog - what my mum wanted but in all honesty - id be trainig him - so i would prefer a breed i love

thanks for the link!



claire n daisy - thanks!!

everyone else - i appreciate your thoughts and advice - im not rushing into anything

yes im still learning (Arnt we all!!) - i have trained a collie succesfully at agility - i have had problems with millie, a typical hyperactive cross of the 2 breeds collie and sprginer - the vet told me the worst cross lol!! but i love her energy and the fact shes always ready to go walkied 2/3 times a day

we are hopefully trying a new sport soon - im hopefully watchin that next week to see - if not back to agility -

anyhow back on topic - my friend has 2 GSD that she dosent as you lot would - train -she walks them - they are fab dog s - great trmpraments etc - my other friend has 3 gsd - and had a litter off one of them - she said they would be fab agility dogs - i have also met one of her dogs - so well behaved/socialised etc - and the dosent get walked!!!

i appreciate what you are all saying and believe me im not saying im going to get one - yet lol! still need to doa he11 of a lot more research... but if you can give me your views if you have owned one before rather than 'one you met at training' i think that would give me a clearer view on the circumstances and behaviour of the dogs(if that makes sense)

thanks

Dunno.I dont know the Owner or Training methods in Europe.Lisa Went aboard to use the dog so she must think alot

The Litter is Fabulous, if Mav was a year Older id have Had the Big Dog. Have you Met Sue Luces "Archie" just Qualified for Ticket? hes the brother to the bitch.

I have never met a nasty GSD - however all those I know are worked in obedience or in training - these are dogs that need to be kept busy.
My shepherd was the easiest dog in the world - 110% bombproof and loved obedience and agility

I would agree, I think collies are more demanding, and having both at the moment, I am experiencing this. Kahn(GSD) seems to want to do things because he is a good boy and wants to get the praise for being good. Zoe (Farm Collie) wants to do things she enjoys, the praise comes second. Also with regards to the type of reward differs, both will work for food, but with Kahn he wants the treat and a fuss, Zoe prefers a good tuggy or chase after the ball. Both are good workers but require different approaches to their training, and with Zoe we have to keep it interesting, or she switches off. So I agree with Lorna in my experience Collies are more demanding, plus they never seem to tire.

Now to play devils advocate, a few comments have been made to suggest you should wait til more experienced, but in my opinion, any of the working/herding breeds are best suited in breed experienced hands no matter what it is, whether it is a collie, GSD or a gundog, but if we all stick to the dogs we have experience with, then how would we ever appreciate the traits of another breed. You have experience with collies, so you understand the need to keep a dog like a GSD busy. If you went ahead and got one, you do need to be aware of some of the negatives of whichever breed you get. My experience has shown that GSD's can be wimps, Kahn is a big wimp, and around the agility circuit and with trainers the response is normally "he's just a typical shepherd". The other problem we have with Kahn is fear aggression, he was attacked when he was a puppy and has never quite gotten over it. Things have improved since zoe came along as she takes control, so he is not so afraid anymore.

Hope this has helped!

Take care xx

thanks

i understand everyones concerns - so to hear good and bad is great

the main thing that im trying to understand is the difference in a working shepherd compared to a show shepherd - my understaning is tha tshow shepherds backs are more well slanted?? and working bred ones are mroe(to me sorry) normal??!

yes i wanted to havea go at showing its not that important - i think id in all honesty get bored easily lol! i want to do agility - at the end of the day it wont bother me if i dont win all the time with a gsd or at all lol - i have millie and imo she will be one to watch late this year/early next year -watch this space lol!) -

A bad experience with one dog does not a breed make !

My Alsatian was the straight backed well boned type - with a phenomenal temperament. He was protection trained yet could be trusted around anyone and everyone. And yep, I was literally laughed out of a Breed ring with him because his lovely straight back was `too` healthy. Never been back in a Breed ring since.
Rose rinted glasses ?
I don`t think so.
Could he have done agility if it had been around then ?
Heck yes he could have, physically and mentally, he would have done very well indeed.
Did he wobble on his legs like some of the caricature dogs in some rings ? [ mainly in the US for the worst examples ] - heck no.
Which would I choose if I could face having another Alsatian ?
Give me a good straight backed `old` type any day - and the temperament too, far better imo than many, [ not all !! ], of todays examples [ showy type ], which I have seen all too often to be shy nervy wrecks which have none of the `common` solid character of old.

If all Alsatians today were like mine was, they would be the breed everyone would want - but like the example you gave, one dog - good or not - does not a breed make...

I adore the GSD breed and will always own one

I have both border collies and a GSD and I think they make good stablemates. Both are demanding, intelligent, need a job to do and are the most loyal and faithful companions if all their needs are met.

GSDs need careful socialisation and training. They need to be understood and respected by an owner who is seen as the boss and team leader, rather than a team mate.

Great books to read before getting a shepherd are "Understanding the German Shepherd Dog" and "Training the German Shepherd Dog" both by John Cree.

You will probably have to decide whether you want a dog to show or a dog to work, as the two are very different animals. The working/schutzhund bred dogs are high drive, exceptionally intelligent and definitely need a firm hand and an experienced owner who is dedicated to working their mind. This is the type of dog the police most often use.

I don't know a lot about the show type of shepherd, but can only suggest going to a top breeder and lots of shows to view lots of shepherds and talk to the experts.

My own shep is a mix of German and English lines. To me, she is the most beautiful GSD in the world, and has the type of temperament suited to fun agility, competitive obedience and working trials. She definitely doesn't have the working drive for schutzhund. She is a longcoat so is not suitable for the show ring.

Good luck with your research

Here is my Flame ...

moobli - she is stunning!!!!!

i have looked today - and comparing the 2 - im ruling out showing - i prefer how flame looks - lovely!!!!!!

id rather not show and enjoy a shepherd for agility - and schutzhund (sp) which im trying with millie but i dont think shes the right dog for the protection lol!!!

Aww thanks Suze ... Flame is a definite babe She is from obedience/working trial lines and her breeder (who only breeds very occasionally) lives in Essex. I see you are in the North West - Flame's father was from the Foxfold Kennel, who are in Rochdale. I don't have their number, but Muddiwarx may have as her lovely bitch, Lacey, was from the same breeder.

As I said, Flame (and her type of shepherd) aren't really suited to Schutzhund, as you need a really driven dog for that sport, but she loved agility and obedience

Well I absolutely love GSDs. I think they are a wonderfull breed and they are very obedient if you train them...
In our country the GSD has been the most popular breed for a very long time
I only met ill tempered GSD once...Ussually they are very friendly and obedient. I don't think you need a lot of experience handling them - they are not dominant (Ok, some are, but you see that in a puppy).

My uncle had a GSD and he was always locked in the kennel. he only went for walks with me. So he was never socialized properly. But I NEVER had any problems with him on walks and I was 14 yrs. I kept him on a lead all the time of course, because he wasn't mine and he wasn't trained well. He was never aggressive - even when other dogs growled at him he just backed off - he wasn't affraid, he just backed off. He never chased bicycles, cars, motors and he was friendly to everyone. I was very sorry for him, because my uncle really treats animals like crap - Rino (the dog) knew no love, but he was so loving. I am just sorry I didin't do anything then, was too afraid of my uncle...
now every time I see a GSD a see him...When he wa 10 he ran away from home and my uncle never searched for him. I didn't even know Rino was missing. When I found out, I was searching for him everywhere but couldn't find him. I gave up, now it has been a year since he went missing...If I ever find him i would take him myself cause I know that at his age no one would want him. Just hope he died loved...
It is because of him that I love GSD and I don't see how they are seen as dog for experienced in other countries when here we refer to them as dogs for the first time owners....I don't know how it is like to breed GSD in Uk, but in our country they have to do ISP 1 (A) in order to get the right to breed.
I would go for a GSD, just be carefull in selecting the breeder, genetics are very inportant!

thank you paw paw!!

im still researching the breed now,,, think they are lovely!

My parents always had a German Shepherd aswell as the farm dogs growing up, and I have only great things to say about them. I adore them. I think if you can keep a collie happy, you will have no problems with a GSD. I think the main point, is socialisation, none of ours were aggressive. My own Gsd who was getting on when my first child was born was brilliant. I never had any problems with her, she was very obedient and well mannered. I think if you do your research , take plenty of time finding an excellent breeder, you can't go wrong.Make sure the relevant health tests are done too. I do think some people don't understand them, and take their vocal abilities:smt002 as aggression sometimes. Lovely big Gsd near me, most people say keep away he's nasty, as he barks, but he isn't he is saying HI Gsd style, once you acknowledge him and give him some fuss he shuts up. Some can be very vocal, and they love to talk, well mine always have anyway.

Can you tell I love this breed.

Sadly my father's dog was very typical of the "Alsatian"type dogs that are still being bred today, last year I was at their Championship show(involved in the Obedience)when my Cavalier Joedee(he weighs 15 lbs BTW)was attacked by not one but five of the "show"dogs at the show-the reason given to me was he frightened them !!! Now Joedee until July last year lived with a GSD who wasn't frightened of small dogs. One of the dogs was muzzled & later went on to be highly placed the handler removing the muzzle seconds before she went in the ring.

However those that love the"Alsatian"will never progress & start hip testing etc & improving their dogs structure-reducing the rear angulation so that the dogs become sound. They will continue to use "cheesewire"chokers high under the ears to control their dogs & hide the dodgy temperament to some degree.

I've had more than one bad experience with the"Alsatian"type-A bitch I handled ran off for BOB at an All breed Championship show, the bitch judge preferred the type shown & bred in Germany & the dog judge preferred the "Alsatian"type. The dog's handler was Marjorie Williams(a professional handler of Alsatians)

The dog judge went over the bitch, kneeing her & pulling her mouth open very roughly, quite what he was hoping to achieve I will never understand. The bitch judge asked for the dog to be on a loose lead & choker both in movement & stance & he could not get near the dog. Both judges obviously preferred their own winner & Joe Braddon was called in as Referee. He sat behind the judging table, never touched either dog & complied with Miss WIlliams request for the dogs to be gaited separately as her dog could not keep up with the bitch

As I was finishing my fast gaiting the dog leapt out & tried to bite my bitch right in front of Joe & he still gave the dog BOB. As I was leaving the ring a tall foreign gentleman stopped me & asked to examine the bitch, which he did very gently.

His words I remember as if it was this afternoon"I should have judged the BOB & your bitch is a lovely animal & would have been BOB. The dog I would have dismissed from the ring." He was in fact the Group Judge Sigi Wilberg. In the group he too could not get near the dog & it was indeed dismissed from the ring without being judged.

To Suze. If you are looking for a GSD you need to decide what type you like, the UK Alsatian type, The German Show type or the German/Belgian/Dutch etc working type & then you need to find someone who does the full health testing & who will give you help & support not just take your money & say good bye

Foxfold kennels are now in Yorkshire again BTW

Did I roll eyes at you ?
No.
Kindly do not do it to me.
You are not the be all of Alsatian knowledge and experience, no one person is, and believe it or not people are allowed to have a different opinion to you.

Alsatian is just another name for GSD. They are not a different breed nor even type. Old `type` of build yes, Show type, yes, but one is not Alsatian and the other GSD, they are exactly the same breed.

Sounds like a pack thing to me, not a breed specific attack. Any group of dogs can behave that way regardless of breed.

My old co-agility trainer competes with a dog who wears a muzzle until she steps into the ring and it goes on again before they leave after a run. So do many dogs of all breeds at all sort of events. Its not breed specific and one dog of this or that breed being that way does not mean they are all the same.

Sorry there is no other way to put it but what a load of utter baloney, that`s got to be one of the most insidious generalisations I`ve ever heard.
Also, I never used a choker of any kind on mine in or out of any ring or training exercise or any other time thank you. Plus I think you will find if you read any of my posts on the subject of hip scoring that I, who prefers the straight backed build in Alsatians, believe every dog which is to be used for breeding should be hip scored regardless of breed, and if I were to buy from a breeder, [ hypothetically obviously ], I would`nt buy from any breeder who did not do every breed relevant test under the sun as well as hips, [ and elbows in the case of Alsatians ], whether considered `breed relevant` or not.

Your point being ?

Name dropping has no effect on me, sorry, and if you are basing your judgement on a couple of examples like that... well, I would personally be looking at the handlers and how they have brought the dogs up individually quite frankly, not trashing a breed or a recognisable build difference within a breed just because of having a bad experience with one dog, or some handler at a show doing a bad job with their dog.

Note to Suze - Alsatian is`nt a `type`, its just the other common name for GSD, they are exactly the same breed - the main `types` for what you are looking for within the Alsatian / GSD breed are basically those which slope significantly, [ show type ], and those which don`t ;-)

There are 3 distinct lines in English breeding, what I call Pet lines which if you are lucky you might get 1 or 2 in a 5gen pedigree that have been hip scored bred for the pet market with a lot whites/longhaired and recessive and dilute colours such as blues, livers etc. then you have the English showline again very few breeders hip score non elbow score, certain lines carry Epilepsy and Heridtary Cataracts and the workline bred for trials etc.
In continental lines again you have distinct lines the German Hi lines (Deep Chested and good definition of croup)bred for the showring but from the age of 2yrs must have a working qualification such as minium SchH1 most SchH3 or HGH, you need to be careful of autoimmune conditions as certain lines carry these but all breeders hip score, blood test, DNA, and most elbow score, in Europe all do, good prey drives.Then you have what some term as middle again based on Continental lines these are lighter framed dont exceed max height limit, extremely agile. Again though as a mix of German Hi lines some lines carry autoimmune conditions, good prey drives, some have high defence drives.
In continental worklines again differences between West German lines and DDR dogs with the WG lines being heavier built. High defence and prey drives.
I have had English showline, middle lines, German Hi lines and dogs that have been a mix of Continental work and show lines.
Some of my continental dogs have been extremely active, able to keep up with and out run my daughters lurchers, those with high prey drives have been used for pointing and flushing game, those with high defence & prey drives used as protection dogs , 1 of my current ones as nil defence drive medium prey drives he was used as a therapy dog etc.
In each litter you will get a mix of pups, but dependent on what you want to achieve the breeder should be able to help you pick the right pup.
What ever you decide make sure you research the lines you choose and go to a breeder that does a minium blood test on male hip & elbow scoring on both sire and dam.

hi, thanks everyone!

yes - i dont call them alsations - as i dont like it lol!! to me the are shepherds - german shepherds lol!!

like flames colour is the colour i would get (tan and black??/)

i like the white and black but just prefer the colour of flame !!

As far as I was aware the name GSD was changed to Alsation during the war so as to eliminate any bad feeling that they were obviously german dogs and we were at war with Hitler! Same dog at the end of the day it was just a temp change of name.

I do not profess to be an expert in any breed although the GSD just happens to be my 'familys' breed. I personally have not owned any but have grown up around them all of my life. On my father's side he has 6 siblings and they all keep or have kept GSD's in the past for over 60 years. SO no I am no expert and I haven't even been in the breed 5 minutes but I am going by my own experiences and that of my family and what they have taught me from owning them.

I must admit though, none of the dogs were ever shown, they were pet only, however this does not mean research was not done into both types of lines. A lot of dogs have came from top show parents.

so guys, following on form my reasearch.... if i want to concentrate on agility/obedience and other activities except showing,,, i should be going for the working lines - not the showing lines?? (the difference is the conformation??)
this is where im stumped lol!


p.s - emailed someone before and they have a litter due at the end of march - perfect timing! so we shall see - so yeh im definately leaning towards this breed now - just want to make sure i get it right etc...... show or working..