Labradoodle/Cross breed info Discussions

Discussion in 'Crossbreeds Forum' started by IsoChick, Nov 14, 2007.

  1. IsoChick

    IsoChick New Member

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    Shelley

    Labradoodle/Cross breed info

    Just a quickie....

    Are there labradoodle breeders around who are actually determined to make the LD's a "breed" - e.g. years of selective breeding etc to get a "standard" dog...

    And is there a specific "type" for an LD - e.g. dam is labrador and sire is poodle?

    Cheers
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  3. Hevvur

    Hevvur New Member

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    Heather
    Some people must be determined to make it a 'breed', as they have already spread roumors that the KC were considering accepting it as a breed.
    Wasn't true of course!
  4. Mahooli

    Mahooli New Member

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    Becky
    There are some people who are trying to set it down in stone but until there is a breed club and breed standard then it's not going to happen.
    Becky
  5. IsoChick

    IsoChick New Member

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    Shelley
    Basically, the story is:

    Someone I know is getting a LD (not really a friend though). They are paying £950 for it ( :shock: :shock: ). The dam is a labrador and the sire a mini poodle. They're getting an LD because they're allergic to dog hair, so can't have any other sort of dog.

    The little pup looks very cute, he's what I think of as a mini-LD as he is mini poodle size. Basically, he looks just like a mini poodle, but with a slight change of face shape, to more of a labrador shape.
    I gave them the song-and-dance about the fact that there's no guarantee he won't shed, and that, as cute as he may be, for £950 they could have just bought a poodle. The poodle would have papers, be KC-reg etc and be a "known quantity" in terms of health etc. Apparantly, they don't like poodles, and that's why they won't have one - except they're getting a dog that's half poodle, and looks like a poodle.


    Apparantly the LD breeders are part of the group that want LD's recognised as a breed by the KC. This is their 2nd litter of LD's (same parents) and they've got totally different pups than last time.

    They seem to have given this person loads of spiel about genetics and the F2 gene and why the dogs won't shed. Also stuff about some breeders not breeding "proper LD's" because they're using standard poodles, not mini poodles; and that the dam has to be the labrador etc. They've also mentioned "breed standard" several times.

    Of course, I bit my lip throughout most of this. Whatever I say won't change their minds. But it got me wondering about the validity of LD's - are there rules that people adhere to with regards sire/dam, or type of poodle etc?
  6. Mahooli

    Mahooli New Member

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    Becky
    OK I think they have blinded these people with incorrect science! Firstly the term F2 is the generation not a gene! Seondly if the parents are both pure bred but of different breeds then they are F1 generation not F2. An F2 is two F1's mated together! I have yet to meet an F1 generation that doesn't moult, if they are looking for a non moulting dog they will be disappointed. Thirdly there is no guaantee that the dogs will be small just because one of the parents is, having had first hand experience of puppies born to a dog and bitch that were 10 inches apart in height and all the pups grew to nearly 24" at the shoulder and not 14" like their mum then that is a load of nonsense as well.
    In order to get the ono-moulting gene they have to introduce a large propertion of poodle usually F1 generation cross back to a poodle so they are 75% poodle so really they might as well get a poodle, they're cheaper as well.
    If breeders really wanted these dogs to be recognised then they should be way past F1 and F2 generations and on to F8's or more with a closed stud book, then they're going to have to breed true for at least 5 generations before the KC will even contemplate recognising them so you are looking at a minimum of 20 years dedicated breeding from F1 generation, which they are nowhere near.
    Do you know who this breeder is and pm me the details?
    Becky
  7. Phil

    Phil Fondly Remembered

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    Phil
    The problem is what characteristics in the LD are actually desired.

    What is it's purpose ?

    Once a purpose has been established then the obvious qualities can be chosen for 'selective' breeding.

    Repeated breeding of the 'type' will then eventually result in a standard.
  8. IsoChick

    IsoChick New Member

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    Shelley
    From what I can tell, there isn't a definitive purpose (please correct me if I'm wrong!). People want non-shedding dogs or dogs that allergy sufferers can own, presumably, is one reason for the cross.
  9. Phil

    Phil Fondly Remembered

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    Phil
    When I asked "what is iot's purpose" It was a rhetorical question.

    In the very begining the LB was bread as a non allergenic guide dog.

    In terms of developing the breed - some people want to avoid making the Labradoodle into a recognized breed, and believe that a true Labradoodle should only have Labrador and Poodle lines (first cross). By restricting breeding to Poodle and Labrador rather than from two Labradoodles they hope to maintain genetic diversity, and avoid the inherited health problems that have plagued some dog breeds.


    Others are breeding Labradoodle to Labradoodle over successive generations, and trying to establish a new breed. These dogs are usually referred to as Multigenerational and because of the number of successive generations of Labradoodle to Labradoodle breedings behind them there is much more consistency regarding size, coat and type.

    To be 'recognised' (produce consistently predictable characteristics) I guess the second method would have to continue.
  10. morganstar

    morganstar New Member

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    Jacquie
    Lots of dogs are non shedding why not just buy one of these and at least you know what your getting and the health implications.
    I feel really strongly about this its a cross breed to all intents.
  11. kirstya72

    kirstya72 New Member

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    Kirsty
    One of my colleagues has a labradoodle but it is a cross (dam) labrador/ (sire) standard poodle not mini. I think she paid £700 for her, and I remember telling her she was off her rocker at the time:lol: but in saying that they as a family had their hearts set on a labradoodle and she has turned out to be a lovely dog but she sheds just as much as any other dog I have ever had:grin:
  12. Phil

    Phil Fondly Remembered

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    see my prev post.

    It will always remain a cross breed if the first method is used.

    If the second method is used it will evolve (rightly or wrongly) to the point where it no longer is a cross breed.

    Cross breed method = aiming to keep diversity and health

    Develop a new breed = potential health (as per any pedigree dog) but more consistent standard.
  13. Muddiwarx

    Muddiwarx Member

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    Julie
    LOL yet odds are they will be allergic to this - why on earth not go for a breed with KNOWN coat type that they can test themselves with before hand? LOL :)
    I bet you already said that!
  14. morganstar

    morganstar New Member

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    Jacquie
    I still cant see the need, other breeds of dogs are proven not to shed.
  15. Phil

    Phil Fondly Remembered

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    I'm not advocating the need for the breed (hey that rhymes)

    I'm answering the original question by the thread starter.

    "Are there people trying to develop th LB into a recognised breed"?

    = Yes there are

    ..........but I also thought it was good to point out why some people think the LD should remain a Lab X Poodle whilst those trying to develop the 'breed' will follow LD X LD lines.
  16. Patch

    Patch New Member

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    Patch
    My responses below are not aimed at you, you are just relaying the details, so please don`t take it the wrong way - my comments are aimed at the breeders and those who believe the rot they come out with ;-)

    Well, they could - there is no guarantee of a labrador x poodle mutt not shedding.
    If they used a bit of the price to buy Hepa filter instead they would have enough left over to buy a health tested carefully bred pedigree or better still give a donation to a rescue for any purebred or cross [ including poodle crosses...], for which adult coat type is well established.

    What the pup looks like is far from certain as to how he wll look as an adult.

    I`ll just stick with `sheeesh :roll: ` for their thinking [ or lack of ] on that bit :lol:


    There are two kinds of Hope - one called Bob, the other called `No` :lol:

    Yup, no surprise there ;-)

    Ah, the blind `em with science approach [ which the ones spouting it are blinded by themselves from the looks of it lol ]

    Your friends are`nt seriously falling for the charlatans guff are they ?? :shock:

    Presumably because thats the combination they happen to own for their `business` :roll:

    There is`nt one - its impossible to create one as all sizes and both combinations are used [ or should that be `abused` ].

    How did you manage it - I would`nt have been able to :?

    maybe print out the responses here and just leave them to see sense ?

    The only validation the breeders seem to need is their outrageous prices for un-health tested mutts [ health testing being pointless as whats valid for a purebred goes out the window when crossing breeds ].

    Yes - throw any lab with any poodle and make a mint :?

    Fwiw, my old girl was a Lab x Poodle [ I refuse to demean her with the stupid designer name ].
    Her litter were given away free because they were ... mutts !!!
    Apparently until the age of six months she looked like pure Lab, then she started sprouting Poodle curls - in clumps, bless her :smt007
    Her combination coat caused her over-heating problems so she had to be completely clipped through the Summers [ she did shed but the poodle curls stopped the lab hairs from coming away easily, thats the easiest way to explain it ].

    She was, is, and always will be the most fantastic dog ever born or ever to be born, no dog will ever exist to match her - but certainly not because of her parentage, it was because of her own inner soul and stoic-ness despite the horrible life she led before I got took her away from all that.
    The fact remains, the pup your friends are being mislead about is no different to my old girl - both mutts / mongrels/ crossbreeds.
  17. Phil

    Phil Fondly Remembered

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    Phil
    So which of the above is the right way forward then ?
  18. Mahooli

    Mahooli New Member

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    If they want recognition then it has to be closed book. Besides the fact that labradoodles have all the disorders of both labradors and poodles now even in first generation crosses it's incorrect to suggest that first cross only is healthier!
    Becky
  19. Phil

    Phil Fondly Remembered

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    I suspect those that advocate the 1st cross approach rather than continual LD X LD would argue that the less consistent offspring will not pass on (as they wouldn't be bred from) consistent generation after generation LD health probs.
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 14, 2007

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