Stud potential ? Discussions

Oh don't start me off Phil! I have so much to say on working/show gundogs! Luckily my breed don't really differ so much, many working weims have completed their field trials as well as being shown to be made up instead of 'just' a show champ. But that's a whole other debate!

I don't want to go off topic, but I think I was one of the people you are referring to above and just wanted to point out that the characteristics of small, short legged ESS were due to breeding for field trials, not work out on a normal shoot. Something entirely different, which is why the field trial Springers vary so much from the standard ("leggiest and raciest of the land Spaniel"). ;-) If you look back at old photos of Springers on shoots, they are not small or short legged.

Just wanted to make that clear! ;-)

LOL you did yes.

I honestly can't remember now LOL but I do understand ;-)

agree totally leo.....i think these dogs look lovely but i really wouldn't be interested in one as there seems to be so much argueing in the breed and so many different but strong opinions. As a complete outsider it is very off putting i really wouldn't want to be part of that. It is a shame you cannot work togeather with your knowledge for the love of your dogs.

Would there be any type of bitch that this dog could improve then? ie a too Sibe looking one? one that is very very dark?

Obvisley i dont know & just speculating????

I don't really know how the genetics would work, IMO if he was put to a bitch that looked like Sapphire. she is mainly white, and I have been told by judges that she has a good head shape, angulation and very good movement, and IMO as far as I can see she has nice strong upright ears, a lovely straight tail, and as she has blue eyes that make her face non GSD looking. So in theory you could get, a pure white dog with NI wolfy face, correct ears and tail, correct angulation and good movement .
BUT on the other hand you could end up with all the bad points of both dogs :-(

If the dog is not of a high standard (I don't know anything about the breed therefore cannot make a judgment on that), then it shouldn't be used at all IMO. To put an inferior dog to any bitch would just be bringing the bench mark down. If there was a bitch out there who needed something that this dog posesses (whatever that may be) then surely there'd be another dog out there who posessed those desired qualities but was also an outstanding specimin of the breed in other ways too. There is never a need to breed from dogs that aren't top class - bit of a blanket statement there I know (and there will be people who make exceptions) but you get my drift.

Debs

Interesting question. Many of the traits that distinguish one breed from another are quantitative and involve a number of genes that combine to give continuous variation. Angulation for instance. If you mated an over angulated dog to an underangulated one, you'd be more likely to get mostly moderately angulated pups rather than extremes.

But generally I'd agree with Debs in that it's better to breed from those most closely resembling the ideal than try to correct faults by matching with the opposite.

The colour though is something entirely different. Firstly white is allowed in the NI standard but this type of white (also found in the Siberian and GSD) isn't genetically or phenotypically the same as white in the northern wolf. The white colour of the wolf has dark pigment in the coat, and it's the growth of extra coat for the winter that increases the white. Many dogs have this to a lesser degree where the undercoat is lighter than guard hairs and this is evident when they moult, as they look much darker without it.

Also the NI type of white usually comes with a flesh coloured nose which is not allowed by the standard. This is different from a 'winter' nose or 'snow' nose which can occur on various coat colours.

And as this type of white is inherited as a simple recessive, mating a white to a very dark dog won't necessarily produce in between colours. It might be that they do, but that wouldn't be because of the white, more to do with other genes that the white colour is disguising. And if the dark dog also carried white, they could produce white pups at 50% incidence.

Just thought I'd let you all know Kain is booked in to loose his man fruit on the 30th of this month, tried to get a closer appointment but theyre gonna be busy with orthapedics next friday.
Janie I agree totally with every thing you have said about the N.I society I am a member did everything right in the beginning except let on I was getting 2 puppies the same age wow then the s....hit the fan and Julie you can use Sandra as a scape goat all you like but some of us know the truth and unless all the posts have been deleted on the old forum people could go in and make up their own minds.
Still have'nt answered what Spirit will bring to better the breed.
funny you never did find a post where I had a dig at you.
Janie I'm with you here when my N.I membership runs out next year I won't be re newing and I won't be going back on their forum either.
MAN AM OUTTA HERE !

You dont have to have him castrated just because he wont be used at stud. Is the other dog being done too? Persoanlly I dont think such measures are necessary, just keep him as a pet, as he is.
Dawn.

I agree with Dawn, why do you need to get him castrated asap, you dont have any bitches, so there wont be any 'accidents'. Regardless of your opinion on the N.I society, IMO, they really are doing what is best for the breed, and I wish you hadnt taken it to heart so much. You know Ive always said your boys are beautiful, you know they are, what else matters?

Don't rush into it, if you haven't got girls there is no need.
Toby is stud qty by health tests etc, but he will never sire, because i don't know the risk of passing on his problems.
But his man fruits are still there and swinging, just because your not gonna breed doesn't mean a dog or bitch should automatically get the snip.
Hes a lovely lad, please don't put him through surgery for the wrong reasons.
Hes your lad, you love him and he loves you thats all that counts, nothing more.

I agree with Dawn, Sutty and Leo.

You probably know of my boy's health problems, so regardless of 'breed standard' he will not be bred from.

But he's staying as God intended.

Please don't rush into getting your lovely dog castrated unless absolutely sure you want to do it. Leave it awhile and if you still feel the same then do it, sorry probally sticking my nose in where it's not wanted.
He is a lovely looking dog, and you should be very proud of him, I love the picture of the both of you together on the sofa
He's a great looking boy, as is your other dog too

Is there a reason you need to have his nuts chopped, it seems a bit drastic. Out of the entire male dogs we have had only one castrated (a BC, on the vets advice that it would calm him down) it didn't make the slightest difference, he stayed as hyper as before. We have left all our other males with there bits on even though they were 'just pets'. We have a castrated (before we had him)NI male, and he is still humping the bitch, so it won't stop that either.

then again.. if he`s not going to be bred... whats the point of him keeping them... health wise he`d be better off without them (IMO)!! Every dog in our family... 12.. are all spayed and neutered.. just waiting till Noah is old enough and his off to the vets to.

sorry :-( didn't realise there were health probs with him keeping his nuts, thought it was just bitches for health. So if it would be healthier to lose them, perhaps they should get the chop

testicular cancer.. being the main. My mums little yorkie years ago wasn`t done.. he had a strangulated testicle, nearly killed him :-(

It's a personal choice. Take some time to think about it.
My boy is entire but that's because I show him and that he probably will go on and be used at stud. However, if I didn't show him I would probably have his bits off whilst he was young to avoid the chance of testicular problems in the future. Everyone has different views including mine. Do it because you want to and for the right reasons. It's your decision though, no one elses
He's a gorgeous boy, enjoy him