Stud potential ? Discussions

the bottom picture is crow,hes not been hip scored yet as hes only just turned a year

Sorry posting this again as the first link wont stay open

Nookie




And can i just say i have 2 white NID's here with me at the moment and yes they do look like my old white GSD but i love them to bits stud dogs or not ;-)

lovely head on your lad though,,,

I love Crow, he is a gorgeous looking dog:smt007 :smt007 :smt007

Not having a go.. but stating the obvious.. it can't be good when people in the breed ask questions and don't get clear answers...

Could it be that they aren't Mahlek "type" dogs and the others are?

No, there isn't the perfect dog, but you don't want to be breeding from dogs who deviate too far from the standard.

Obviously I am not too good with the NI standard, but even the photo's that have been posted of good NI dogs seem to have their faults (IMO), it depends on how bad that particular fault is considered (for example the bitch appears to have very weak pasterns when the breed standard calls for 'pasterns upright but flexible' and the dog seems to have large ears when the standard calls for ears that are 'not too large'). In our breed the severity of the fault depends on how much it will affect their function, however in a breed that wasn't designed for a particular function, just a look, then it must be harder to identify which faults are considered to be worse than others. IMO constructional faults are worse than cosmetic faults, however as I said, in a breed that was bred for a particular look, they may have different ideas.

I saw the photo's of the dog in question when they were initially posted and to me he did look like a white GSD (especially in the second picture), however as mentioned above, I am certainly not that good with the NI standard and when asking a question like this you should really go to people who know the standard well.

JMO

neither of the three dogs have big ears,and its nothing to do with the mahlek type.abbies bitch is a nice quality bitch. but this is nothing more than we expect on here,and it still dosnt change are origanal answer that that particular dogis pet quality.

See this could get like a dog show!

I agree the bitch appears to have weak pasterns, but are they weak, or just like a GSD, not weak, made that way? Both adult males, to me at least are very similar in type, the puppy is very short coupled and doesnt have the width of stifle, nor second thigh, any of the other three have, that may improve with age though. "Crow" has a much stronger head than "Nookie" both look male though, puppy is a puppy, heads change as dogs mature, saying that will Crows head become coarse and heavy as he matures?

Im not picking faults here, just observing and demonstrating to the OP what people may pick up on when judging dogs. Saying what I have, I will say one thing, NONE of them look like any one breed of dog the NI has in them, whereas Kain does, he looks like a GSD and nothing else (my opinion only) which is why the OP has been met with such negativity and you cant blame people for giving an honest opinion, as its what she asked for.

A good dog is different in most peoples eyes, this is where "kennel type" comes into it, and why people look down judging lists and say "not going under him, he wont like my type" and such like. So I agree with Louise when she says "Mahlek type" I think she is right.

From the standard:

The croup bit, not too steep, is that from hip to base of tail, which IS the croup? because Im not sure ANY dog could have a high set tail and also drop away at the croup? I cant imagine it anyway. Both of those males to me anyway will NOT have a steep croup and appear to have level toplines, and not drop away at all, Crows back legs are slightly under him, but I still think he is very similar to Nookie. The bitch also has a level topline and all three have no evidence of drop away at the croup and the tails set level NOT high, the bitch is longer cast than the males, I dont think she looks out of balance at all though.

A bit of a ramble, and just to say again, Im NOT judging anyones dog, nor nit picking, just observing from the photographs, you "feel" a dog as much as you look at it, a picture can hide a lot. Construction is felt as well as seen, the tail set, mouth, shoulders etc.. would need to be handled and seen to be appreciated fully.

I hope Inkileeva appreciates the pictures people have put up and the fact us lot who dont even own the breed have passed comment on them without seeing them in the flesh nor owning the breed, I do think in this case the people who have said Kain is a pet dog have done it for the good of the breed they are trying to develop and not just to be nasty.

Thank you all for posting the pictures.
Dawn.

no hes not mahlek type hes pet type ,ask the breeder or the stud dogs old owner.or better still we dosnt she ask shadowlands who bred the sire and the dam and find out what she thinks to that litter.

Yes, I was just going on how I interpreted the standard, to me 'upright pasterns' are exactly that, the GSD standards calls for 'Pasterns firm, supple and slightly angulated' - however I quite freely stated that I am not in anyway familiar with the NI standard and stated that it is best to ask people who know the standard best for their opinions

This certainly wasn't my intention either - the pictures of these dogs have been posted as they have obviously been very successful in their own shows and thus must conform to the standard fairly well, however it was just to confirm that no dog is perfect and all have faults, but when breeding you look for a dog that excels in the area which yours is weak in. However your dog should be a good example of the breed before you even consider breeding from them and this is where the opinion of the experts comes in.

I am sure Abbie's bitch is a very nice girl (well she has done rather well for herself) - I was merely commenting on the photo

So you are saying that anything that IS'NT Mahlek is pet type then?? so only your dogs are good enough to breed from??

no louise im not saying that at all.theres some stunning northern inuits bred by other people,and im also not saying my dogs are perfect, but what i am saying is that that particular dog is pet quality.

I'm perfectly open to criticsim on any of my dogs as I know that no dog is perfect but will just say that one photograph can differ greatly from another.

I've often asked judges for their opinions that have met my dogs in the flesh, gone over them and seen their movement. Weak pasterns have never been mentioned.

I do see what you mean from that particular photograph but I also have many showing them more upright.

BTW Julie didn't breed my dog. Both Julie and myself have a very low opinion of the person that did. Still i'm certain if Julie had anything bad to say about Sacha she would have said it by now

Yes Abbie thats what I said, a dog needs to be seen and felt to be properly appreciated. Do you think perhaps the judges judging Sacha may not be familar with the NI and therefore not think a weaker or more angulated pastern would necessarilly be incorrect?

I have found judges that havent a clue about "spanning" Borders and one critique even said "Good Badger head" OMG!!!!! I think he meant Otter!

Ok, Misty

Essex (NI breed show) 2006 (Res best puppy in show)
Oldham (NI breed show) 2006 (2nd place Bitch Puppy)
Essex (NI breed show) 2007 (Res best in show)
Oldham (NI breed show) 2007 (2nd Place Open bitch)

I think given these wins are our own breed shows the above successes speak for themselves, pic's:





age 1:

Thank you all that are posting the pics, I just love seeing pics of them, they are a lovely breed. Such beautiful faces and markings.

Thats a good comparison Angelmist, on the second and third pictures, Misty appears to have pasterns similar to Sacha, and not upright pasterns. Her coat also appears to be similar in looks and texture to Sachas, although Julies dogs look to have a much more thicker coat.

Have been following this with interest, I don't want to get shot down by voicing my opinion because I do not know/own the breed but I have to say, they are all very different in their own ways aren't they? I don't mean that as an offence to anyone but from the pictures on here and the pictures on other threads (the non-recongnised breeds show thread is a good example) there is a certain 'look' that reigns throughout but so much variation, I think this may be where people (outside and even inside the breed) are becoming confused. It is no person or dog's fault as it is obviously a breed in progress, and as has been said, the standard is very vague and can be interpreted as contradictory in places, especially as even some of the breed show winners differ from what the standard is calling for.

I have to say that I agree it is hard to tell from pictures but the pasterns on both bitches do look weak or 'angulated' if you like, yet the dogs don't.

Inkli, is there any way we can get a pic of Kain in a similar 'show' pose/stand to compare against the other NI, although I understand you now probably feel people are here to pick faults at your dogs but if you want an honest opinion it may be helpful?

Can I just but in here and give an opinion

Firstly, got to agree with abbie.... a photograph in not a good way to evaluate a dog. The look of a dog can depend so much on how the camera has caught a particular position. Angles and bone placement can be distorted by light and camera angle.

Another factor is handling technique and sorry to pick on you abbie, but your photo of Sasha shows exactly what I'm going to refer to. The method of stringing up to bring the head carriage upright does have the effect of laying back the shoulder blade further, and pushing the upper arm forward which brings the elbow right under the head position. This can also accentuate the angle of the front pastern, making them appear weak. Also the hind angulation is exaggerated as the weight is pushed backwards. It could well be that Sasha has correct construction, but it doesn't seem that way from that photo.

I see the standard makes no mention of the upper arm, but if the look of the wolf is what's desired, it's important to breed for dogs of a normal front assembly ie moderate angulation of shoulder and upper arm, with apparent length of these bones comparable and the natural position of the elbow, set well back under the top of the shoulder blade.

I know this handling technique has become very popular in many of the working breeds and I've seen many other photos of NIs and Utes stood in this way, but to emulate the construction and carriage of the wolf (no, not the maned wolf Becky ) a natural, balanced stance and movement should be desired.

Heres my male: always placed at our breed shows



aged 1 1/2 but standing:



and my newly practicing puppy!!