Working Spaniels-Tail Docking Controversial

Myself and everyone I know personally who are against docking are also against removal of dew claws, yes.
My personal view is that unless they are extremely vulnerable [ very floppy and sticky-out ] they should be left in place for the dog to use and **because its better for overall long term leg health for them to stay put.

Its very easy to take precautions against them catching, [ the rare vulnerable ones ], by keeping them well trimmed and if necessary using a sporting dog type wrap, until they are of an age to have them done under GA and with pain relief given. Its something [ most ] vets tend to do if a dog has to be put under for something else anyway [ ie neuter etc ], as at least by then it will be more evident if the dew claws are problematic or not for an individual dog.

**To back up the long term health aspect, below is a section from a piece written predominantly about dog athletes [ agility ] but of course equates to all active dogs whether doing agility, Jumping bridges ;-) and other running and jumping day to day exercise / games.


With A Flick of the Wrist by Chris Zink, DVM, PhD

"In the last several years, while doing sports-medicine consultations for performance dogs across Canada and the United States, I have seen many canine athletes with carpal arthritis. Interestingly, this condition is much more common in dogs that have had their front dewclaws removed. To understand why, it is helpful to understand the structure of the carpus. This joint consists of seven bones that fit together like fieldstones that are used to build the walls of a house

The carpus joins to the radia and ulnar bones (equivalent to our lower arm), and to the metacarpal bones (equivalent to our hand). Each bone of the carpus has a convex or concave side that matches a curve on the adjacent bone. Unlike the bones of the elbow, for example.

The elbow bones have ridges that slide into interlocking grooves the bones of the carpus do not have ridges that slide into interlocking grooves on the adjacent bone. The relatively loose fit of the carpal bones is supported by ligaments that join each of the carpal bones to the adjacent bones.

With so many carpal bones that don't tightly interlock with the adjacent bones, the ligaments of this joint can be easily stretched and even torn when torque (twisting) is applied to the leg. The dewclaws have the important function of reducing the torque that is applied to the front legs, especially when dogs are turning at a canter (the main gait used in agility).

In the canter, there is a moment during each stride when the dog's accessory carpal pad (on the back of the carpus) of the lead front leg touches the ground and the rear legs and other front leg swing forward to prepare for the next stride. At this point, the dewclaw is in contact with the ground and if the dog turns, the dewclaw can dig in for extra traction to prevent unnecessary torque on the front leg. Without the gripping action of the dog's 'thumbs’ there is more stress on the ligaments of the carpus. This may cause the ligaments to stretch and tear over time, resulting in joint laxity and ultimately, arthritis. "

Full article here : http://www.bridgecreeklabs.com/id59.html

Fingal has no dew claws and 3/4 tail as you know.

On a lighter note - Skye has Dew claws that Freddy Cruger would be proud of -they are about 1" long.

When he jumps up (he's very tall) with his front legs either side of you he uses them to hold on by sticking them in your shoulders or neck

OUCH

I know the feeling lol
When I pick up Silk or T`Akaya for cuddles [ not a word lol ], they grip with theirs, like little Koala`s holding on bless `em

Slightly off on a tangent but some good points there Patch on Dew Claws.

PC will probably crash on me - but here's some everyday examples of dew claws in action

Lovely pics Phil
And yep, they demonstrate dew claw use very well indeed
If you`ve seen the vid I posted of my pokey Fluke doing some agility, you can see on there how incredibly tight he can turn at speed and when landing on a turn because of using his to full advantage

Yes I have and I've seen enough lurchers working to know at first hand. Skye is fast in a big strong way rather than a nippy way but you can see the 'lurcher' (ness) in him in his eyes in pictures 5 and 6. He needs to be doing the chasing for that 'chase' instict to really come out although when he's chasing Breagh or Fingal he really doesn't have to go much above 30%.

Great pics.

2 of our 3 dogs have rather large rear dew claws

They are shown, do obedience, agility, play fight and charge round the fields like mad things.

Their dew claws have never been a problem. I would never consider putting them through the pain and trauma of having them removed when they are so obviously not a problem to them.

I've got no dew claws on my Spr Spaniel - again it's another potential problem removed. No claws - no rips.

Same old chestnut as the tail. I dont work my Spr Spaniel (he came that way).

I guess a lot boils down to whether people 'think' or are that 'bothered' about what the dog goes through.

A lot of working dog folk will do what they think needs to be done to minimise risk (however small the reduction) as the dog is an important tool.

Taken from the report In psychological tests, it has been determined that the time between the nervous impulse and reaction (chronaxie) takes 3-4 times longer than it would in an adult That says it takes longer for it to react not that they don't feel pain, and another In 1941, Volkhov determined that animals, at this period of life, had very little feeling of pain again saying (taking into account this goes back to 1941 and the ability to monitor neurel activity has vastly improved) that they have little feeling of pain not that they don't feel it but the previous statement says that they take 3-4 times longer to react!

I don't think the drowning of puppies is humane, I can't be held responsible for what some warped judge has come up with!
With regards to clipping my poodles, I was told to start at 2 weeks which I wouldn't do and it wasn't until 4 weeks that I clipped and they didn't react at all, much to my surprise, they threw more of a hissy fit when I wormed them!
Severing through a tail can in no way be seen on the same level as clipping a dogs coat, if you think clipping is more cruel than docking then I think you need to sit down and have a good look at yourself!
Becky

Do I really Becky? I dont think so, do you? :smt002

Whatever you may think, I think its is very cruel to put electric clippers on tiny puppies faces purely to alter the way they look, how about waiting untill the dog is a bit older? other breeds do. Docking you and most others claim is for cosmetic reasons, so is clipping Poodles, so as there is no detremental effect to a puppy thats docked properly, it, in my eyes is absolutely no different to chopping off coat to make the dog LOOK they way YOU want it to, cosmetic you see!
Dawn.

Not sure what you are seeing, but pups of three days old dont have the ability to 'sit' - or are you suggesting the docking is being done at a much older age?

I have only ever had a litter banded (as opposed to cut), and it is not something I would have done again...although the pups showed none of the discomfort you describe, I just know which I prefer!

I have seen countelss docking, of different breeds, and I have never experienced such a scenario.

How can 3 day old pup have the ability to avoid sitting on his backside to relieve the pain?? at 3 days old they can barely shuffle around... unlesS these pups where docked at a much later age

I have to say I much prefere the method of snipping of with scissors, it is over in an instant, yes the pups will yelp, but they make much more noise when you pick them up, destrubing them from their sleep or mother...

I have witnessed mums, not batting an eyelid when the pups where docked "by banding" she would not do so if she thought her babies where in danger.

The last litter a frien dhad docked the vet came to her home, she took the mum out side to toilet, while the vet docked and dew clawed the pups, when she came back to them, they where whimpering a little (but them they whimper every time the dam moved from them)

She got right back in with them washed them down, gave the vet , mum ,and me a kiss and settled down with her babies. no distress, or upset was seen.

I can only comment on what you have written - perhaps you need to look at what you write before condemning others as 'silly' and 'stupid'?

I cannot say that I noticed my banded pups in litters showing any more/less discomfort than those who have been cut, when moving or when at rest, of course it may well be different for those breeds that have a much shorter dock.

No it is`nt I have witnessed many Boxer docking, and never seen this happen....

absolutely. my bitch didnt bother in the slightest (either method) - its me that has a preference for cutting, banding seemed awful long winded to me!

contented bitch,howlong did the process take,?

im on a gundogs thread,maybe this should be carried on somewere else i have working dogs,not gundogs but the process is the same,i wrote last night about boxers being docked,and how breeders can sit on the fence and say it doesnt hurt when it does,for howlong isnt debatable here,and im for one and going to start a thread on how long does it hurt for when docked.
so im not going to make anyone happy by arguing the point,my point was IMO it hurts,wether it be four 4 seconds or a week it hurts,and thats jmo.
so im therefore taking a step backwards and if you want suggest between yourselves that there docked at a later stage youre totally wrong,my vet does them at 3 days,old,not 3 weeks xxzbxx
ps thanks for the debate i enjoyed it xx

Pardon???????? are you asking how long the docking took, why???

]

So at 5/6 days old a puppy who cant sit up, can turn around to bite his tail!!!!!!!

I am surprised when you have such strong feeling against docking you continue to dock your pups.

I dont understand why you are getting so uptight, you made a statement, that myself,tandi, and no dobut others will find hard to understand....nobody said, you had docked puppies at a late age, just trying to understand how a 3 day old pup can have the abiltiy to sit, or move himself around to avoid sitting on his tail.

Are you saying a puppy can feel pain for wks or days after it is docked.

With all the reseach on the net, be it for or against docking, I have never come across that theory.

Erm...I think you mis-read my quote...the KC stance is..
'The law states that an offence would not be committed if a dog was shown at an event to which members of the public are admitted on payment of a fee where a dog is shown only for the purpose of demonstrating its working ability'

I'm not talking about the showring but dogsports only; there is yet to be any firm decision on whether flyball/agility would be classed as 'demonstrating working ability' but working trials and field trials have already been granted that exception.