Working Spaniels-Tail Docking Controversial

Rips referred to me specifically on that point, saying I knew nothing about it - I grew up surrounded by it :-(

Any particular method in mind :smt047
[ don`t answer that lol ]

It is a dodgy situation.
I know of a vet that will dock dogs as long as he knows they are going to working homes, but not pet homes. None of the other vets in the practice will dock.
I live in a country area and have heard both sides...........still undecided but know which way I lean!

I have found that most pet people prefer undocked and the working dogs people prefer docked.

I'm sorry but that's balderdash and you know it. I asked about the legislation, you answered the question and then carried on to make out that anyone who docks is some sort of evil entity! Read it again, it smacks of the anti docking brigade! The legislation quote was enough to answer my question, but as usual you couldn't help but stick you opinon in there aswell!

And is there a law to say you have to answer every single post??????? I mentioned it as part of a conversation I had you couldn't help but pop in your opinion and thoughts on this mans need to dock his pups and I might add your general opinions on docking, yet again! As I've said, totally unecessary the link would've been enough!

I'm not interestd in where you came from or what actual experience you claim to have, what I'm saying is IMO you clearly know NOTHING about working Gundogs, you have not personally worked them and until you do I'll take your posts on docking with a pinch of salt.

And that's me done I think, have fun everyone.

Ta ta!

OK my sleeves are up...........

For Rips - Patch has provided some evidence of having contact with working surroundings.

For Patch - You do come over a bit strong.

For both - It's funny how you almost agree and then you both fire up again.

' CAT IN PIGEONS'

I work in a vet surgery in a country area with alot of working dogs of various breeds. The injuries they come in with do not seem to involve thier tails more thier genitals and legs!

I will say that I am neutral! I am undecided apart from the fact that if it is cosmetic it is NOT needed! I am also unconvinced as to the working, but that is because I dont know enough about it.

Phil, many people could provide "some evidence" of having contact with working surroundings, but it doesn't mean that their opinion is the only one to have or that it's the only one that's right!

At the end of the day I asked 1 question and the anti docking brigade was out in force, even before I asked the question tbf.

I guess I'm just sick and tired of being told what I can and can't do by people who have no clue about such things.

"I keep my nose out of your business and you keep yours out of mine."

That's how I like it!

Rips, you have voiced your [ incorrect ] opinion on your belief that I am some clueless townie, but you would deny me the right to set you straight on that point ?? You have your opinion, I have mine - we both have the right to voice what we think.

You did`nt just ask a question, you also brought something into the discussion which you did`nt need to in order to get the answer to your question.
You brought in the `extra dimension` to the thread but then don`t like it when that point is responded to - its a discussion forum Rips, you surely did`nt think you bringing in something emotive would get no response did you ?
You said this other person was devastated, I asked why - it was not at you Rips, it was at that way of thinking regarding the person you mentioned.

Where did I tell you what you can or can`t do :smt017
Also, which part of me not just growing up around it but members of my own family owning and working a shoot could you possibly claim mean me `not having a clue about such things` ? Its because of growing up around such things which have formed the way I feel about it all.

With respect Rips, it was you who opened the door to discussion re the other persons reaction to not being allowed to dock his litter, if you had`nt mentioned it you would`nt have made it anyone else`s business to discuss in the first place ;-)

Is there a law to say I can`t ?


[ Just count to 10 now Rips ;-) and don`t bother throwing anything at me, I can dodge flying objects reasonably well ]

Where exactly? Please, please point that one out!!!! I know for a fact that I've NEVER called you a clueless townie. I referred to the town brigade, yes, but at no point was YOUR name linked to that remark.! ;-)

Nope sorry wrong again! I asked a question putting it into context from a working mans point of view, at no point did I insinuate that docking was a positive thing to do or something we all should do cos that's what I think!

You, on the other hand, felt it necessary to query this mans need to dock and to insinuate that those that dock are evil and that docking is shocking and we should all be very ashamed of ourselves (I will remind you of my wording insinuate!!)

I put the situation as I saw it, you got on your high horse and decided that it was your responsibilty to tell everyone what you thought, and that you were, of course, right!!!!!!

My question has to be why on earth would someone of your stance, severely anti hunting and anti meat eating, come on to a thread witht the title "Working Spaniels - Tail Docking" other than to preach???? Cos that's all it is as far as I can see.

It feels to me that the anti docking brigade got a bit way laid. They started out with good intentions, but as time went on they were so desperate to get their own way and prove that they were right that they would do whatever it takes to get their own way. It feels to me that the anti dockers stopped considering the dogs and went on a bit of an ego trip. But then that's JMO, doesn't necessirly mean I'm right (remember).

I feel the need to add that you and only you have responded this way to my post. Everyone else seems to have taken it as it is, a simple retelling of a story! Because that's all it was!!!!!!!!!!!! I opened no door, you jimmied it with your tail docking crow bar!

It's shame it's come to this, but I guess I just got sick and tired of watching people on threads be told what they should and shouldn't do with regards to docking, that is what you do Patch, be honest. Have a look back at all of the docking threads and I can gurantee you'll be posting and preaching to the pro dockers. What's that saying...."Opinions are like a**eholes, we all have them, but it doesn't mean we have to air them every 10 seconds!".

Please just let us do what we believe is best and keep your opinons to yourself.

You insinuated it very strongly, and your wording "I'm not interestd in where you came from or what actual experience you claim to have, " - by saying it that way looks like you believe I am lying about what I grew up around. I don`t appreciate that inference.

I queried his emotional attachment to docking in terms of being `devastated` that he had been prevented from having it done.

I don`t insinuate that - its what I do believe, I`ve never hidden what I think of it through insinuations, I say it straight out :smt102

I repeat, you brought it into a discussion forum, you put it as you saw it, I responded as I saw it.

Firstly [ and if you choose to not believe me thats up to you ], because mentors are supposed to keep an eye out for any problems in threads to help take the workload off the already hardworking mods so any threads which may become inflamatory get watched carefully. Its also a topic I am bound to take notice of anyway, and frankly I don`t think you have the right to question which threads I read in any capacity.
I also read threads on topics I have zero interest in, in case they may flare up, as do all the other mentors, its part of the job for us to flag anything like that to the mods who can`t read every single post every day.

And you have the right to express that opinion, just as I have the right to express mine.

At this time of night I expect many are in bed so have`nt read it yet, or are sitting back watching our posts to see what we say next, or any number of reasons why others have`nt commented on that particular post [ yet ].

You brought it in to conversation, I responded. There was no need for me to jimmie into it, you laid it wide open. In what way did your comment answer the OPs post ? It did`nt. But you felt the need to bring it in anyway. Why ? If not to have a pop at anti-dockers [ just looking at it the way you seem to be looking at my responses as though there is some agenda to them ] :smt102

You call it preaching, I call it educating ;-)

You seem to be saying you can but I must`nt [ air an opinion that is ].
I answered the OP with a fair and unemotive post. You brought in an off-topic comment because you felt the need to - I responded to that comment with a question because I felt the need to. I am actually allowed to have and air opinions just as you are Rips, so please stop telling me - sorry, `inferring`- that I should keep my nose out just because you don`t like what I have to say on the subject.

A lot of people would over the years would have liked opposition to what they did / do to keep quiet and do nothing.
Thankfully because people do speak up for what they care about, a lot of sickening practises against animals and humans have been outlawed over the centuries, though there are more yet to be stopped, and people who give a damn will keep speaking up despite the protests of those who don`t want to be stopped from what they `believe is best`.

None of this is of any help to the OP I`m sure, so don`t be surprised if our off-topic `debate` gets deleted anyway :smt102

I'm going to repeat this again and no doubt it will be ignored again but I've been on a shoot and the only dog that damaged it's tail was a docked springer, so to me I fail to see how docking 'prevents' tail damage, because quite clearly it doesn't!
Becky

deep breaths people!!!

in ref to the original question - haven't got a clue chick! but they will be gorgeous either way and i look forward to seeing the pics xxx

Although we work our springers, I'm a little bit divided on the situation. I have seen many really bad tears on full tails, especially if you have a real hard hunter, who goes full pelt at really thick cover. It always appears to then be a weak spot. Generally a 3/4 dock is the best, as this is generally just before the tail has any curl in it, making it less likely to snag. However - to get a vet to dock correctly for working is becoming so much harder. One of our lads Flash is a cracking pup coming on really well. Unfortunately he was out of our male, so we didn't get a say in the docking. It was the bitches owners first litter, and he took them to the vet, and they docked the whole litter too short He has a half dock - not a 3/4, makes him out of look out of balance, and although this is purely cosmetic, it will make him look less stylish in the field, and should he be good enough to trial (which looks like the case) - it won't help him. Also it means that he doesn't hold it down in quite the correct position when hunting, therefore making it more suceptable to snagging. In this instance - a full tail would have been better than what he has. Another 1.5cms when docked, he would have had a super flash at the tip, and would have held it much better therfore reducing injury risk in the field. Hoping it will look a bit better when it gets a flag. Most of the keepers/trialers I know, mark where they want the tail docked with tape so that the vet knows exactly where to do it. Sorry - JMO

Come on Becky, one shoot? come with me on several, and if there are any undocked dogs, you watch the difference!

Crikey, what did I start??!!

Thanks all for your replies.

I wasn't looking for a debate on the pros and cons of tail docking to be honest just wondered how others were finding things.

I was all set to get this litter docked until I recently spoke to the vet who had previously agreed to do them for me and he said he had stopped doing tail docking completely due to the hassle with the paperwork (which I have already got sorted btw), it seems there are fewer and fewer vets wanting to dock tails since the change in legislation.

I have already looked into the 'KC stance' and the line at the moment is 'The law states that an offence would not be committed if a dog was shown at an event to which members of the public are admitted on payment of a fee where a dog is shown only for the purpose of demonstrating its working ability' since my dogs are workers and have no danger of ever being seen in the showring there is no issue BUT what I did find interesting was the fact that all docked breeds were banned from competing in the FCI World Agility Championships in Norway this year, in accordance with Norwegian law. Since my pups will be going to a mixture of working, flyball and agility homes I'm still not sure this is something I want them to be potentially penalised over.

It's not just the agility world champs they couldn't compete at if they were docked, I suppose it depends on how far the new owners want to go in their sport.

And the paying public Country shows which host many independant as well as KC Agility competitions too :smt001

If planning to do agility and flyball, tails are crucial for better balance and turning, especially mid air direction changes over jumps, [ compared to docked counterparts ime of those I`ve seen both docked and undocked in competition and have taught over the years ].

I was at Midlands Counties last week, watching a gundog class, in "Puppy" their where some pups docked some undocked...those that where docked where docked under the "working dog".

So it seems once again the law is an ass, as unless it is a fee paying entry for members of the public, you can still show your docked pups,

As far as I now , through out the whole yr, the only two Champ shows the public have to pay an entry fee, is the LKA , and Crufts.

So, we will still see docked dogs in the ring, those that are duel purpose, (work and show), I guess the owner has a small price to pay, they can show their docked dogs throughout the yr, but have to forgo a trip to crufts;-)

They are banned from companion shows as well, [ those which have a gate fee , which as they are usually fundraisers usually do have one ], so never mind Crufts, there are a lot of other shows involved ;-)
Did the midlands show have a gate fee ?
A lot of breed shows don`t so it can be got around that way however what would be the point of entering dogs which can`t be seen at the top if they are good enough if only they`d had their proper tails ?

I can`t see many breeders advertising ` sired by x who might`ve been a Crufts contender if we had`nt had his tail removed`
Lots of breeders do use Showing results of course, thats supposedly the point of having dogs good enough to get to Crufts, to be considered `worthy` quality ;-)

No MC does not have agate fee, nor do most of the Breed clubs or champ shows, for that matter..

I guess those who want to dock will pay the price of not being able to show at a Companion show.

those who wish to be seen at the top if the tree , will not dock, but those who enjoy working their dogs, as well as a little showing, may choice to still dock.

Each tot here own I say, freedom of choice!!!!!!!!

And although making up a Champion is nice it is not the be and end all of people looking for a stud... most people know what they like, whether it is at Crufts or not.

It is also true that not all Champions produce the best ofsprings.

There is always a loophole to fall through, just like the hunting ban, more foxes are being culled now than before the ban.