Working stock dogs Discussions

Having just gotten to see all these replies after a long day at work, I must sincerely say that I apologize for hurt feelings, for folks feeling I was bashing their dogs, for what I have written to express my strong beliefs in such a way that others have been angered and hurt.

I won't apologize for what I've said but perhaps rather for how I've said it, as I do feel strongly about the subject. I stepped over the line by expressing my opinions and feelings in a manner inconsistent with this board. Much of my vehemence is based on making my own personal mistakes over my 20+ years with working stockdogs, and coming to some painful conclusions while I've experienced a very slow learning curve.

Now, as I have been a source of hurt, anger, and contention, I shall permanently bow out from this forum.

This is an excellent and enjoyable forum when folks like myself stay off it. Enjoy the forum and enjoy your dogs! They are very fortunate to have such passionate advocates.

Thankyou for bringing this thread up - its v interesting and has made me think

I was of the oppinion that the only way a collie should be bred is from working collies
and I do still think that to an extent

But to be fair it is too late for a pure working only breed - the other dogs are here now and they are exactly what some people want
and I suppose dogs have to adapt to fit in with the modern day world

But over time there will become a large separation between these dogs - until they are so differet there will be a new breed
But I guess that is what happens - and at least the dogs are being bred for a purpose

I do agree tho that if you cant cope with a collie you shouldnt have one - I dont think the dogs should be dumbed down because people want an 'easy' pet that looks like a collie, for 100's of years collies have had to have the intensity to do the job but to be able to chill when the job is over

I think, with all breeds of dogs the dumbing down of some is adding to the problem of incorrect breed choice
If there are some 'dummed down' collies (and I am NOT talking about anyones dogs here - as they all have their own challanges) and then a person thinks they want a collie because they have seen one of these - they think they have recearched the breed, have spent time with the dog. but then when they get a dog with the normal drive they were not expecting it and they cannot cope - and it turns up in rescue at 9 months

Personaly I like dogs to come from working line
There are plenty pups born to working dogs who just have no interest in sheep but who will excel at the things I would like to try with them

TBH (and I am having a go at noone this is just what I think) even if I get somewhere with agility or HTM I dont think I would look at a dog bred just for that - my dog is to be my companion 1st and I adapt my life to what they are like. Dog sports is different from working sheep - you need to have the dog that can do the job for that, but I see lots of people who have got dogs just to do a sport and when they find the dog is unable to do that job then what happens to the dog?? even if it is kept they often get another dog and spend all the training time on bringing on that dog

I think Border Collies need to be bred for their brain, that's what they're famous for after all. This is my main problem with Show-lines, while their brain is by no means bred out of them yet, what could happen in the future? I have a show-lined boy myself, as I've already said, and he's fab. However, not everyone who breeds for the show ring will take the sharpness of the breed into account, and this is where I feel the breed could be badly affected.

I 100% agree. I don't want the border collie to just become another breed, if you get what I mean. I'll cry if one ever wins crufts, it'll mean everyone and their best mate will buy one.

I think the problem is that neither side of the 'divide' can or will compromise. Farmers are hardly going to breed a show-lined BC to one of their dogs, they have no need to. And a show-breeder is unlikely to want to breed to a working collie, as to some of them the ability to work isn't important. The only way to change what's going on in the ring is to get the working BCs out there and in the limelight, they may not win but it gets people talking. However, as has been said, why would any farmer be interested in this? Likewise, why would a farmer be interested in training up a show-line BC? Why would a show-line breeder be interested in working sheep? This is why the gap is huge, neither side can come together really.

Obedience lines, at least they're still being bred for their brain and ability to work.

I don't know, I'm still undecided really. I also doubt a farmer would be willing to home one of his dogs with me to be honest, I think he'd probably prefer a working home, or in the countryside at least.

TBH, I'm not sure where I sit/stand on this! My Boys are nowhere near as sophisticated! The only registrations they have are with the vet! They are definitely of working stock (Snorri had literally to be plucked from a small pile of cow-poo and we could smell him coming for days, even AFTER a bath!). My first-ever BC, Glen, was a rescue, and we never knew where he came from, although he looked more like what's been called a "Barbie" Collie (which means nothing, after this time; he was just well-groomed and looked-after, as a pet).

When I got Kali, I guess that, subconsciously, I was looking for another Glen (silly me) - what I got was a bl@@dy excellent Kali, a farm-born tink who has made an excellent friend and companion - which was the job description given to him on Day One. I don't work him (got no sheep), and, since losing my legs, I'll never get to do anything else with him. We do, however, spend a bit of time gazing at each other with complete and utter devotion. Locals tell me he might well have made a good worker.

Poor Snorri never had a chance as a worker: he was born with an overshot top jaw which would have gone against him on an Orkney farm. He doesn't have a working temperament, either - he's terrified when he sees sheep or cattle. Had he overcome all that, his epilepsy would have finished it for him. Being a very affectionate wee blighter, he is in the place Nature designed him for, doing his ideal job - being a pet.

(In case any readers don't know, Snorri and Kali are half-brothers, from the same farm. They have the same Mum, but Snorri's Dad is Kali's litter-brother )

Since we got our BC from an advert in the local free ads paper, we have no idea of his breeding. He's definately not from working stock as he's a very lazy collie who gives up a game of ball after 2 throws! He's also far too big and not the most agile of specimens but he does have the brains.

BC's are one of the most popular breeds in this country and working ability aside, are a great family dog. I personally dont have a problem with the breed's working ability being diluted. There are enough BC's being produced to enable a buyer to have plenty of choice. If they want a dog with a lower drive, choose one from show lines but if they want a true worker, pick one that is ISDS registered.

I think the problem comes when potential owners do not do their homework. There is no place for a working bred BC in a urban environment and hence they develop issues and end up in a rescue.

I think it depends totally on what you want to do with the dog. I think the more diluted lines are great for people wanting to do agility for example and still want some of the drive there without the obsession for work.

My Samson is from working stock as his mum and dad both worked on the farm where I got Samson from. he is not ISDS registered but the farmer had been breeding working border collies for generations and wants collies to work which I agree with. Some of Samson's older brother and sisters have qualified for crufts in obedience and some are working sheep. In my opinion I love the working type border collie as they come in a range of coat pattens, different shapes and I love their enthusiasm and personality.
I think though if somone wanted a working border collie they should be prepared to do alot of training with it and help burn it excercise, at the moment Im learning how to train border collies to herd Sheep in the lake district and then hopefully I will be able to teach Samson how to do it.
I got Sheena from Manchester dogs home when she was 1 and so I do not know much about her past but she does have quite a working mind, which keeps me busy

Hello Everybody,

It's pleasure to join your discussion. I live in Hungary and right now have 7 border collies. What we do? Some agility, some obedience and some more herding.

Hi. New here, but wanted to add to this vry interesting thread. Forgive my typos, y typing is rubbish.

Ive owned and worked with KC and ISDS bred dogs. Personally, I feel that ISDS dogs generally have an "Off" switch that KC bred dogs do nto necessarily have - thi s makes them easier to live with. My experince is that also they tend toward much sounder conformation, health and better temeraments.

Persoanlly I dont believe that the showing world has doen a great deal of positive for many breeds, especially the collie and it is my intention from this point forward to only get ISDS bred dogs. Becasue they are easier to live with generally in my experince.

May people argue that working lines hold geatter ppropensity to "herd", well possibly, but that propensity in my view is usually easily managed even if the dog is not to work. Id sooner have a dog that was likely to want to herd, than one that is likely to have no "off" switch!

Interesting thread. Thank you.

Glad you enjoyed the thread Denise

I have only had ISDS collies (and hubby has a mix of mainly registered, but also a couple of unregistered dogs) and have found they all have an off switch, especially after they have been working.

Have you managed to get back into herding with either of your two younger dogs?

No. Cloud, was retired for a zillion reasonso, one of them being she kept dislocating her neck, the others, errr, cus she was nuts, OTT, errr, the list goes on,

Connro showed massive promise round a pen of five and even with the same 5 not in a penn.

but then one day, we came across a large flock escaping a field. We pushed them back and the last ewe, adamant she couldt get back over the style she had just jumped, turned and stamped her foot at him and that was it - he was gone. Home.

Now he lowers hs head and looks away if we come across a flock. . Never the bravest dog. So I gave up.

Maybe I will one day when I get a dog that will, but they are so wonderful at what they do do, that it doesnt worry me.

Il leave sheepdogging to the experts for now. How goes it for you???

All my dogs re ISDS, MY PREFERENCE, Please dont take offence, i personally rue the day when the border collie was recognised as a breed 1976. I do think the show collies are nice looking but i do prefer the ISDS working lines that are really bred to work and thier brain.

OLD THREAD I know!!!


But my thought's is that the KC need's to rethink their qualifications for a border collie, they should take into account the dog's drive to work and blah blah blah weather they actually work or not, and only allow dogs to be shown that actually portray the breed well, not only in looks, but in attitude and workability... that would fix the problem, but it probably won't happen sadly

In an ideal world all dogs who are shown would also be proven at work. Unfortunately this is a far from ideal world, and to be honest I think the show collie and working collie are so far removed from each other they should change the names. Perhaps call all show and sport bred dogs "border collies" and call all ISDS or unreg working dogs "working sheepdogs".

Please stop having these fascinating debates - I have work to do and I'm sidetracked again

I've read everyone's posts and I just wanted to make a few observations:

;-) Firstly, I apologise in advance if anyone disagrees to the point where they find it personally insulting. These are just my thoughts and no better / worse or worthy / unworthy than anyone else's!

What nobody has flagged up is that the 'market' if you can call it that, for pet dogs is full up. It is saturated to the point where hundreds of perfectly healthy dogs are put to sleep and hundreds more are in rescue homes, or undergoing specific training aimed at helping them adjust to life as a 'normal family pet' (if there indeed is such a thing!)

So what has this to do with working / non-working lines?

Well, to me, quite a lot. I know the only reason that would tempt me to own a collie is if I actually lived on a stock farm and needed a dog to assist me with my making a living. I do see what Sue R was driving at here: needing a dog, because it is part of your livelihood is vastly different to wanting a dog, because you wish to participate in any kind of hobby. I'm not saying this to knock dog-sports, because I think anything that helps build up the partnership between owners and dogs and allows dogs to use their brains, agility, stamina etc. can only be for the good However, I think we do need to appreciate there is a difference.

If only proven stock-workers were bred from, there would still (I suspect!) be pups who ended up as fantastic family pets; working trials dogs; obedience dogs; agility dogs; search dogs; PAT dogs and the rest, simply because the people who genuinely wanted a border collie (I use the term losely, not specifically to mean a KC regd. animal) would make the effort to find a line they liked.

If we breed dogs with strong working traits, specifically for the pet-market, are we not just adding to the 'surplus' (awful term, I know, but how else can you describe it? The sad fact is, there are too many pets and not enough pet homes)

The counter-argument, of course, is that if we just breed from working, farm-bred dogs, are we not creating dogs more likely to end up in rescue should they be bought by people wanting an average pet? Personally, I believe the answer is 'no', because I would hope that reducing the numbers of collies being bred and raising awareness of their role as working dogs would enable people to make a more informed decision about the type of dog they bought in the first place.

I do appreciate the dedication and research that some breeders put into breeding collies specifically for dog sports and the care they take in placing their dogs into suitable homes. I would not lump these people into the same bracket as the speculative breeders; the puppy-farmers and the breeders (from whatever background) who are just in it for the money and will sell to anyone. However, my own personal opinion is that I would rather see stock-working dogs being bred specifically for the kind of stock-work that the breeder wants them to do. It could be trials, or lowland, or upland - they might want a rangey dog, or one that works like clockwork and looks for instruction; or one that is really forward and likes to make his own decisions....it could be smooth-coated, or a thicker coat...As a buyer of a working dog, you look at what is available, think about the traits you desire and make your choice.

I do not personally believe that KC recognition of the Border Collie as a breed eligible to be shown and with a breed standard that dictates physical conformation (albeit quite broadly) has done the collie any favours at all. Most people who need a stock-dog would just ignore the world of show dogs anyway.

Conversely, I do believe the Kennel Club has its uses, especially as a secretarial body, which allows health tests to be recorded and pedigree records kept (not that ISDS can't fulfil this function too) I also think in many ways, the KC does have a valuable role in the world of dogs and sometimes we are all too quick to knock it.

So - in my ideal world (which is never going to happen!) we'd just have collies bred from worker to worker matings, who were proven stock-dogs. The people who bought the pups would not rely in internet adverts; books; forums or anything other than their local knowledge of terrain and what the breeder's specific objectives were; they had seen sire and dam work and liked what they saw and also asked around about other dogs from the same lines and put their names down for a pup because they had made an informed choice.

Some pups would by the law of averages, just not take to herding and these are the ones whose owners should take special care to place in homes that could offer something that suited the dog i.e. still provided an outlet for all the intelligence and energy without the need to actually work livestock.

OK - it will never happen, I know!!!

;-) As for showing - despite what you may think from reading the rest of the post, I think it is a great idea! I think the problem lies in the principle of showing being taken to extremes.

Creating a sport / hobby / forum where enthusiasts of a particular breed can come together to compare their animals, and have them judged by their peers against a standard that is written to describe a dog capable of performing the function for which it is bred is a great idea How can it not be?!

What (just my opnion) is so wrong about the world of showing as it stands is that - excuse the pun- the tail now wags the dog. Dog shows should be for the benefit of pedigree dogs Pedigree dogs should not exist for the benefit of the show -world; nor, I believe, should dogs be bred specifically with the aim of winning at shows, as opposed to producing an animal with the ability and physical conformation to fulfil a specific task or function.

I think we have so many exaggerated breeds and breeds that bear no resemblance to their working counterparts because somewhere along the way, the breed clubs have lost their way and the show-ring has become 'master' not 'servant' of the breed.

Right - I'm dashing for cover now. Again, I am not posting to provoke anything but constuctive debate. Once I started typing, there was just SO much I wanted to say and I am really grateful to Moobli for the excuse to say it

My two pet collies are working stock bred.

They are

14 YR OLD.

Browm and tan, quite small with a rough collie/sheltie look to his head.

4yr old

Tall rangy, long coated. Tri coloured.

I think I'd always go for the stock dog or simialr (e;g unregistered but working bred) collie as I like them.
I've nothing against isds reg but don't see the point for a dog that will primarily be a pet.
I mostly work with pet stock dog bred collies.
I have to say the only kc collies I've met were total nutters, but that may have been their owners lol.

Adam

I think they're great for pet dogs, as long as the owners are active and involve the dog in every thing. my dogs are frequently worn out and perfectly happy with just going every where and doing things like: boating, swimming, running, travailing, camping, family get-together's, training (just fun tricks, but they still gotta think about it ), and what ever else we do. We all have fun and the dogs are worn out from the days activity's. but if they were placed in a home without a whole lot going on then bad things happen.

FANTASTIC post

Agree with Moobli/. Brilliant post! Now get back to work!