Working stock dogs Discussions

I actually think I did -

"Off the fence, my opinion is that I personally am only interested in ISDS registered border collies from working parents. However, as long as litters are bred responsibly and ethically and with every effort made to find the right homes then I cannot criticise."

What I should have said was as long as litters are bred (from non working dogs) responsibly .... blah blah

i think you were implying that by breeding for different purposes & therefore diluting the "work" ethic, that people who had a dog from non ISDS lines ,had a "easier" dog & maybe wouldnt be able to handle a ISDS dog. that is how i understood the post. If you didnt mean it in that way then i apolgise.

The thing is people LOVE their dogs so may take some of your comments as quite insulting! ISDS isnt the be all & end all to everyone. I know you love that type which is fabulous,but that dosent mean the other typres should not have been bred,or we should throw them away & have ago with a ISDS dog. Have you ever looked at a purpose sports bred dogs pedigree?i think you will be suprised at the clever breeding thought & effort & talent of the breeders behind them.

just to second mishflynn

Not at all - just that breeding away from working line dogs, means breeding out the working drives. I don't mean that it will make the dog any "easier".

As I have mentioned once or twice ;-) I started this thread as a debate, to get interesting points of view from different border collie owners. I can see positive points in all sides of the argument. I never meant to offend anyone at all - so I apologise if I did.

I have looked at sports bred dogs - and clearly a lot of thought and planning does go into these matings ... however that wasn't the point.

Which was actually a generalisation since I have heard similar remarks made elsewhere time and time again from working dog hobbyists that I would class as 'born again novices' since it always seems to me that the real sheepdog men (and women!!) that are working their dogs every day and trialling every weekend actually couldn't give a monkies what anyone else is doing and aren't in the least bit interested in show or sports dogs and don't feel the need to go evangelising to the rest of the BC world!

But since that was just you playing devil's advocate and not expressing your own opinion it wouldn't apply to you would it? So there was no need for you to take offence.

Well, no not really, since the working drives are what are sought in obedience and performance sports to, they wouldn't be bred away from.

The question raised wasn't about breeding away from working lines anyway but only breeding from proven working dogs.

But arent you saying that only ISDS dogs should be bred from? where as that leave all the other dogs?Which have just been as carefully planned & are loved & cherished?

Apologies, I mis-read that

Does it breed out the working Drive though? Have you seen Roy Gouttes Blue? All show lines & has huge drive & works sheep.

Also ive known Many Ob lines Collies go to Roys For Sheep training breaks & work their dogs on the sheep,some have ALOT of Working drive & instinct, Some of course did not

Nope, what I was originally saying was that I had enjoyed reading a debate about whether only working (as in stock) border collies should be bred from to retain the working drives and natural instincts of the breed. I actually never gave my own opinion at that point.

I personally feel that if a litter (whether ISDS, sports, obedience or show) is well thought out, planned for and the correct homes found for those puppies, then I cannot criticize.

Well this question should all be part of the discussion - whether breeding for other disciplines breeds out the stock working drives of a collie. I don't have a definitive answer.

Moobli isn't actually saying anything....just 'playing devils advocate'...but the question wasn't about breeding from only ISDS, it was about breeding from 'proven working dogs' only...which I think we all agree would just be ridiculous.

ok that is fair enough;-)

I dont think that only proven working dogs need to be bred from to retain the working instinct, I believe everyone should have the right to have what type they like.
& i dont believe in anyway that the other types are a poor relation to ISDS types.

One thing I notice here in the US is that those who promote "live and let live" or let everyone breed as they will, are either strong kennel club proponents/participants and/or those that produce and sell a lot of pups to show, performance, sport, and pet homes and therefore make money in that market. In which category would folks place respondents to this thread?

Producers of quality, working-bred dogs generally get lower prices, sell all they can produce to suitable working homes (and place unsuitable dogs in pet homes when they can), cull strictly, and are in favor of a complete separation of kennel club-bred and working-bred dogs.

Just because a dog is descended from Border Collies/Working Sheepdogs, no matter how illustrious, doesn't make it a real Border Collie. Breeding Border Collies requires breeding for all the right things - focus, intensity, stock sense, soundness, biddability, temperament, health, etc. It doesn't require breeding for coat, color, ear set, sports performance, pet temperament, etc.

The thing is that 'type' as in conformation or working style etc will vary greatly WITHIN each discipline...show, work, agility, obedience...whatever...people still have their own preferences and I would say that people are far less tolerant of the types they don't like within their own discipline than between them. If you know what I mean. Once you really get into something and you know EXACTLY what you like and don't like in a dog it's easy to become intolerant of those things you don't (which will more than likely appeal to others!)

You'll find the biggest amount of 'bitching' about dislikes ring-side at a conformation/obedience/agility show or on the trials field I'm sure

In your opinion....as I have previoulsy mentioned what you consider to be the 'right' things and what someone else does will never be the same whether you are breeding for work or conformation or sports.

As I also mentioned, the biggest supporters of the 'live and let live' attitude here is probably the real sheep dog men and women who are working and trialling their dogs and couldn't care less about ISDS Vs KC....they just don't have a problem with it.

Just out of interest Moobli....where was this original debate?

On a working sheepdog forum. Dogsey doesn't allow me to send links I'm afraid.

The shepherds/farmers and triallists I know usually have plenty to say about KC bred dogs ;-)