Working stock dogs Discussions

The reason I ask is because of your above statement.
I do a lot with my dogs. I show them, do agility, flyball, swim them. Play games out on walks, obedience training and now looking at working them or starting some working trials.
All this and it wasn't enough for some of the people I contacted. These were pups from working homes and I was told even with all of this it would not be enough to keep the dog stimulated. I respected their view, it was the wellbeing of the dog that was paramount, not the £ signs.
Too many of this breed are in breed rescues that can only be rehomed to working homes due to the high drive of having previously being worked.

I also edited my post to say I had checked out the breeding and Kicks' pup is from ISDS lines.

I guess it really is personal preference for me I will only ever own ISDS but some of my best friends own beautiful show/agility/flyball collies which are KC and they do very well in their chosen disaplines.

LOL your editing faster than I typed

The breeders prerogative I guess. If I were to ever breed my first choice home would be a working home that I knew looked after their dogs, but I wouldn't rule out a pet or sport home immediately. Hypothetically (as I haven't bred), I would personally only like to sell pups or started dogs to homes (whether working, pet or sport) that I knew of, or if they were friends of friends etc.

just to confirm before you all go dwelling off into my dogs pedigree to discuss whether i have a clue! don't mean to be accusatory but dont presume you know more automatically i actually meant one of our other dogs!

Sorry Kicks - we weren't supposed to be discussing individual dogs. No offence intended.

nice idyll Moobli but the state of British Agirculture as it is :-( I think that if you limited the BC breeding stock to PROVEN stock dogs you would soon see the extinction of the breed! :smt002

Oh Kicks my fault so sorry I'm a bit obssessed with your gorgous Felix, I recently had joy of having a full sister to Felix stay with me no offence was meant at all actually was just trying to big up the wee man :mini:

I really admire working Border Collies (are we allowed to call them that? ) and what they do is just amazing.

A lot of people enjoy showing or dog sports, and want BCs but don't have the opportunity to work them regularly. In my opinion, if you can't offer regular work for them on sheep then it's a bit mean to start them at all, because a lot of people have told me that they just live for it once they've started. So these people would be forced to move away from the breed they love. If someone has a dog that is amazing at obedience, they will not be able to pass down these traits because their dog isn't a working dog.

On the other hand, I think it's important to keep the working ethic and the brains in the 'show strain' of the breed. I'd like for working dogs to be bred into the show line from time to time so that border collies remain a working dog, and they don't get too far apart, like ESS's have.

I can't explain my opinion :? Basically, not everyone has the opportunity to work sheep, or might not want to, and so should have an opportunity to have a dog specifically bred from parents who excelled in what they want to do, whether that be obedience, showing or agility.

not a problem moobli was just a bit offended at how it escalated when i hadnt even confirmed which dog it was! still no harm done!

oh and to say felix is pure working lines ;-) he is the laziest dog ive ever met!!!! still totally gorgeous though

no worries teal c he is gorgeous! will drag out a pic of the other fellow for you later on. I'm debating starting felix a fan club! he seems to be the one adults kids other dogs and cats head towards!!!

Hmm I doubt that Macman. Just look in the Farmers Guardian, Scottish Farmer or any agricultural publication. There are always well bred pups advertised.

I do understand what you are saying, and to a large extent I am playing Devil's Advocate, as it is a very interesting discussion

Regarding your comment above, my point would be that working bred collies have all the traits that make the breed great at obedience, agility etc etc. therefore is there a real need to (for example) breed obedience dog to obedience dog - as that will not necessarily produce pups that excel at obedience.

But what about those that enjoy showing the breed?

Hmm that is a very difficult one and not sure I can answer immediately without having a long think about it.

I know on the debate I read that the working folk tended to think the show collie should be made a different breed but not sure I am that extreme in my views!

But guess that could be used the other way ISDS to ISDS doesn't necessarily produce a dog that will excel in working sheep. If the obedience to obedience dogs have good traits are healthy and no matter if the pups excel in a choosen disapline or not as long as they have a good fulfilled life isn't that the most important thing, rather than them being ISDS or KC?

Have to agree great discussion Moobli

I know what you are saying Teal. I think what I am getting at though is trying to keep the border collie pure to its origins. Of course not all pups in a litter of working parents and grandparents, gt grandparents etc etc etc will turn out to have the qualities necessary to become a useful working dog. However, that type of breeding is trying to maintain the inherent working instincts synonymous with the border collie and staying true to the breeds roots.

Of course this is more of an ideal than a reality, but shouldn't breeders be striving towards breeding the best specimen they can - and surely for the border collie, that means as a stock worker?

Lots of show collies are also ISDS reg .....

Not purely ISDS reg though?

erm...yes...at the moment there are 'loads' (actually, on the scale of things there aren't that many...it's amazing how quickly a population can reduce in size with the removal of the bulk of the breeding stock). I also don't see the state of British Agriculture improving in the future though so unfortunately the future of the BC may well end up depending on the die hard workers as well as the BC enthusisats. It's also worth remembering that you ask anyone their opinion on what is 'well bred' and another's will be totally different as will one's description of a proven worker so how would you enforce it exactly? Invent a ridiculous test that has to be passed before breeding like the French??

On your proposed system a proportion of the litters that are born would have to be 'culled' from the genepool when they don't prove themselves...all the time getting smaller and smaller. it's very naive to think that only breeding from the best will retain the best qualities, you are forgetting all the recessive genes that pass from generation to generation too, I don't doubt that many experienced breeders in any given field will tell you how a very plain and unimpressive bitch produced some of the best dogs they ever had.

to be honest the idea that only 'proven' workers be bred from is typical of a 'born again' novice that hasn't taken the time to sit down and view the bigger picture.

I think you will find that there is a large number of people that love and cherish this breed and want to retain it's core qualities that do not train or work their dogs on sheep, nor do I think this is wise unless they have the opportunity to do it every day.

Questions like this are always good for sparking debate but at the end of the day no-one owns a breed, it is for each to do with as they see fit even though we may not all agree.