Rough v Smmoth Border Collies? General Chat

There is an interesting discussion on another board I visit regarding the differences in temperament (if any) between the rough coated and smooth coated border collie.

The theory seems to be that the smooth coated, pricked eared type of dog is more focused and driven than the rough coated, drop eared dog. This is a theory I don't personally agree with.

The other interesting point of the discussion regards amber eyed collies and whether they are more worky and driven than the darker eyed or brown eyed dog.

Do any collie owners have any thoughts on the above?

I don't know if there's anything in it, I've known some pretty laid back smooth coated, prick-eared dogs, all I can do is tell you about my dogs.
Boomer, smooth coated, black/white, prick-eared, darkish brown eyes dog, is quite a laid back boy, he originally came from rescue and was too much for his original pet home with children.
Bertie, very rough coated, black/white, drop-eared medium brown eyes dog, lacks drive and endurance, he was from showing lines.
Teagan, smooth coated, tricolour, tipped-eared, light brown eyes bitch, has lots of drive and 'eye', I had alot of trouble with her when she was younger running into another ring at agility after her run to join the dog in the next ring, she was from sheep-trialing lines.
Skye, rough coated, blue/white, prick-eared, green eyes bitch, has plenty of drive, but not the same 'eye' as Teagan, she was from agility lines with a mix of ISDS and showing in her background.

Thanks TBBS - it sounds, as I have found, that each dog is an individual - irrespective of coat length, eye colour or ear set

My Gremlin is a smooth coated BC, brown eyed and with one pricked ear, one tipped.
She is scared of sheep [ I strongly suspect she was bred to work and had a bad introduction to sheep ].
That aside, she is a lot calmer and more focussed than my others in Collie terms, [ aside from life experiences shaping behaviours if you see what I mean ].
Defa is longcoated with pricked ears and brown eyes and as `typically` worky as it gets, Willow is long coated with dropped ears and blue eyes - sometimes he holds his ears semi pricked but he usually cant be bothered, thats pretty much his Collie `worky` ethos lol.
Gremlin is very focussed and from time to time I have seen her with Eye, [ especially if a couple of cats have a spat at which she goes into full sheep dog mode ].
She has a variety of `jobs` which her Collie work `ethic` are suited to, the main one being working for my deaf crew, and she loves SAR type exercises.

I dont ascribe the way she is to her coat length, eye colour, or ear conformation though, its just how she is as an individual, just as Defa is Defa, Willow is willow and Silk is Silk. [ Silk is neither long or short coated incidentally, she`s between the two `norms` - maybe thats why she is a daft lovable Muppet who does`nt recognise a sheep as a sheep anyway, let alone feel like she wants work one ].

I don't think it makes a difference to be honest. I have litter brother and sister - the male is rough coated, very keen, massively toy driven and ultra loving to us - the bitch is smooth coated and almost identical in temperament and attitude to her brother. Both are black and white and from sheep trialing stock.

Debs

Thanks for your input Patch It certainly sounds to me as though the short/rough etc theory is not correct.

Ooh piccies and details please Which line are they from?

Thanks for the input - the more I hear from other collie owners, the more I suspect my own views are right

Round our parts many people do think there is a difference. Its not so much that they think either dog is better than the other for working, but that generally rough adapt better to being pets than the smooth as they think the smooths can be a bit too intense.

I must admit to not having met that many smooths to be able to judge myself, but my gut reaction is with you, that it probably comes down to individual dogs.

With regard to the eyes - no idea at all!

I wonder if the thinking is related to a specific type - the Nap, which is more specific than a collie which just happens to be short coated if that makes sense ?

"Nap Type

Of the four types of Border Collies, the Nap Type is the only smooth coated one. The name comes from a dog called Whitehope Nap. These dogs are strong, fast and powerful. Their coat is short, but has an undercoat to act as insulation from cold or heat. Many have longer legs and shorter bodies, making their outline more square than the other types. Because of their short coats, speed, and power, many Americans used them to work cattle on large ranches in the Southwest."

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The Nap Type

Named for the 1955 Scottish National Champion Wilson's Whitehope Nap, this type is distinguished by their smooth coats, lightening fast speed, boundless energy and abundance of power. The Nap type also contributed their attributes to the Mc Nab and Kelpie breeds. They are powerful, extraordinarily intelligent and dedicated workers with strong unique and winning personalities and a delightful sense of humor. They are often times natural drivers with a manner on their stock that is powerful and controlling without causing the stock alarm and thus having the ability to work up very close to their stock. Their body type is long legged, tall, with well defined muscle structure, and most often times prick or nearly prick ears.

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[ pics here ]
http://www.bordercolliekennel.nl/Nap_type_bc.jpg


Now, I don`t know Gremlins lines as she came without papers, but given the area she came from in Nth Yorkshire, my feeling that she was bred to work but that introduction went pear shaped then she ended up in rescue, and given her general work ethics and brain power, her build etc, if I were a gambler I`d put money on her being a true Nap.
The picture bottom left on the link, [ Gail ], add a bit more black and that could be Gremlin to a tee for conformation and look, far more than just a vague resemblance or `wishful thinking` - you`ll know what I mean I reckon Moobli.
It doesnt matter in terms of any grand scale of things, she`s my girl and I love her for ismply being her, but I do think my gut feeling that she is from those lines and not just by accident is probably close and would explain a lot about her natural behaviours. I just have a feeling about it which I cant explain.
I must take some pictures for comparrison to the lass on the link and I`d be very interested in your thoughts, [ but if you think I`m seeing something thats not there please be gentle, dont go blowing my theory / thoughts like a hammer on a tomato :smt081 ].

Nap type ? that's a good one & I presume an americanism as I've never heard of a "Nap"type

I've got a smooth ISDS bred boy & his pedigree is based on breeding to work not coat type or looks & his pedigree is a mix of smooth & rough

As for temperament & character being linked to coat well an Urban myth I'm afraid. I've had rough coated, semi rough coated & now smooth & they have all had totally different characters but possibly because they were ISDS breeding from working(as oppsed to just trialling)lines they have all had loads of drive

No its not an americanisim, as on the quotes I provided it clearly states : Named for the 1955 Scottish National Champion Wilson's Whitehope Nap.

There are four recognised `types` based on early origins of todays dogs. Temperament / character etc is not based on coat in the four types, no one said it was, its simply a distinguishing feature of appearance specific to one of the four types, nothing more nothing less.
The actual physical and temperament differences are quite specificly noted however which is why I`m wondering if thats where the line of thought of short v long coat could have come from, which could have been misunderstood and then evolved into urban myth where the basis seems to be on a particular type originally, [ which is about other things than coat ], but coat being a predominant visual feature may be what people are going by without knowing about the Nap side - like you yourself not being aware of it, not every one does, [ just because you had never heard of it does not maan the historians are wrong ;-) ].
I only across it while researching something completely unrelated.
Shepherding `heirachy` would, I should think, almost certainly be able to reel off everything there is to know about the Nap type in working lines.

More on the predominant `types` :

http://www.bordercolliekennel.nl/the_border_collie.htm

http://www.bordercollies.nl/eborstam.shtml

Some old but interesting reading here, especially regarding Eye and genetics

http://www.sheepdog.com/genetics/summary.html

I must admit to never having heard of the "Nap type" but assume it means lines going back to Wilson's Whitehope Nap? I will ask my OH, as he has been a shepherd since he left school (was brought up on a farm too) and knows loads about different lines/types etc.

Regarding the likeness to Gremlin, could I see a close up piccie of her Patch? As many different types and lines there are in working collies, there are often distinctive features and working styles which identify which lines they have come from (if you know what to look for). I am no way an expert as yet and have TONS to learn, but was amazed that my OH took one look at my new boy, Rip, and said immediately that he looks like a Huddleston dog - and when I got Rip's pedigree through ... sure enough he had lines going back to Huddleston's Cap

It would be really interesting to find out Grem's breeding, Patch, to see if your gut instincts are right. Perhaps the rescue centre might be able to shed some light?

I think you will find that most ISDS collies have a mix of trialling AND working ancestors. Most of the people I train with trial AND work their dogs every day. Of course some of the top trials people only buy in dogs to trial with - who never see a day's work, but I think that is probably only the top percentage of handlers. Most farmers/shepherds, whilst enjoying a day's trialling, basically need their dog to help cope with their workload. Coat length or ear set are of no consequence ... working ability is all that counts.

All my collies are bred to work - with no thought to coat type and or looks and also they have a mix of rough and smooth. Not sure what point you are making there Dyane?

Rather than "predominant types", I think there are a few distinctive lines which many of today's working collies have in their pedigrees - Wiston Cap being probably the most common.

I agree though that it isn't impossible that this is where the urban myth arose from

I will have a chat with my OH about this, to find out whether he has heard of the Nap type.

According to the resources I found yes thats right

That would be great, thank you

I`ll take some specific pics tomorrow at a few different angles to show as much of her conformation as possible

That happened with my Defa, he was recognised by someone who knew who bred him, it was rather spooky [ in a nice way ].

Sadly I`ll never know. She was a rescue boomerang and I ended up getting her privately from the last family she was bounced to, [ I know which rescue was involved at the time, not exactly one of the best - not the same rescue which my boys came from ]. Where she was, the dogs were just donation fodder - the place isnt running now as far as I am aware, [ I got Grem as an emergency situation just over nine years ago, a day apart from getting Defa ].
Wondering about her possible heritage is more an interest in passing really and I`ll never know her origins for sure, its just a feeling I have that she`s of Nap type either distantly or even direct enough lines for her to so close in look to that type, a strong feeling but still nothing more than that, nothing concrete. I would`nt say she definately is because I just dont know, I just think its a srong possibility.
It would be interesting to see what you and your OH think when I post her piccies though

In the meantime, this pic will not help at all as its such long distance but hey I like it anyway so any excuse

When my dogs breeding was planned it was not done on wins on the trails field but on the strengths of the dog & bitch & the type of worker that the breeder wished to produce, there ar elots of traillists who have a trialling dog & a work dog & not just the top few(at least not in this area)

The sites yopu have posted are dutch ! & I've asked a few sheepdog men & women regarding the Nap type( ie how you describe smooth coated dogs)& they all were surprised. Shorter legged ? Different body shape ?

The types of sheepdog I have known are hill, lowland & a mixture of the two. The hill dogs are longer on the leg on the whole & are more of a thinking dog simply because of the environs in which they work. The lowland dogs are shorter & more stocky. The mixture of the two types can result in puppies form the litter being very diverse

I've owned Hill bred/lowland/mixtures & the hill dogs are much harder to train because they have been bred to think on theor feet when they are out of sight(& often out of whistle range)& can be required to take decisions on how to work the sheep themselves

The lowland dogs are more biddable on the whole

The smooth coated sheepdog is now more popular as work dogs as they are more weather proof & especially in wintry or wet conditions are quicker to dry off. they also seem to feel the heat less

Now if you were to describe Cap or Coon type these two dogs changed not only the trialling world, but left a legacy of very able working dogs with masses of drive & power



A smoothcoated Rjj with the classic semi erect ears ! the image of his dad but in black & white

Teagan, RJJ's half-sister, same dad, I've been told she's the image of her dad, Roy.

Whats your point ? The British bred dogs referenced are still British !

If you said they were shorter legged then yes they would be suprised - the quoted information says longer legged, not shorter.
The references are there, the histories are there. A few people not knowing about them does not mean, as stated previously, that the historians are wrong.

No one is disputing diversity. For me personally diversity is one of the things I love about the breed.

Those aspects were including in the Nap type quotes.

I`ve heard reference to Coon, [ Bosworth ? ], regarding markings but not as a type. They are generally catagorised as four types according to anything I have come across [ so far ], so is Coon a recognised fifth type ?

Cap as in Wiston ?
Or as in Wilsons Cap ?
[ quoting from ISDS database, "Wilson's Cap would be the most influential ISDS dog ever to have lived." ]

Re the second photo - wow :smt007

Look forward to the pics Love seeing collie pics

It is quite amazing isn't it when someone recognises your dogs lines from just looking at them, or watching them work.