Dalmatian breeding - Overview! Discussions

Hiya,
Thanks for all posts.

The reason i am asking is that I’m not wanting to breed Lila , have thought about it lots of times even with her having a blue eye but my mine reason is i would never forgive myself if something went wrong - i have trouble another worrying about my guinea pigs when they are pregnant !.

The reason i am asking all these questions is Lila isn't KC reg so doesn't have full pedigree or anything but i feel she is such an amazing dog!.

The place i got her from only use their own stock, when i was their then had loads of letters from people though-out the years saying what lovely temperaments their dogs had and when we where their they said they are very careful about which dogs they breed from and their main concern was to breed excellent temperament dogs which Lila is - you couldn't get sweeter!.

She is just such a dream, sure she has her days when she wont get out of bed ( don’t we all!) but all in all she is so lovely yet people say to get a good dog they must have tests , be KC reg... am not saying anything bad about KC as i think all the idea's behind it are really good but i also think its possible that where i got lila from really know what they are talking about regarding Dal's.

Does anyone agree with me? If careful dogs where always used for breeding would they have the same problems many breeders find today?.

Sorry this post is sooo hugh lol , another thing a friend of mine has a liver boy and is totally off his head!!. I thought they were joking when they said he was lively but he really is to the exstent of spinning around and round on the end of his lead - he just never carms , he is all KC reg etc but i wouldn't swope his temp/look for lila's anyday?!

Janine xxx

The question that comes to mind is WHY is she not KC reg and WHY are her breeders breeding - most good breeders breed when they need a pup for themselves for work or show - lack of KC reg shows this isn't the case .


Reasons for no KC reg can include that the breeders breed unethically - from over and underage bitches, on consectutive seasons etc etc .... or from bitches who have had endorsements placed on them because they are NOT of breeding quality.


Why have the tests done? Well it sounds like you are so lucky as your girl sounds fantastic but IF she had HD - you wpuld be so angry with yourself for not having done everything within your power tomake sure you had a sound dog - testing doesn't guarantee anything but it ups the stakes in your favour and if the worst happens ... well at least you know that you and the breeder did everything right .....

Hi Janine, the thing that concerns me about the breeder you got Lila from, is that they say they have never bred a deaf puppy even though they have several blue eyed dogs, and see no wrong in breeding from them. So no I don't agree that they can possibly ''know what they're talking about regarding Dals'' Also the fact that they don't register their puppies with the Kennel Club, there has to be a reason and I don't believe the reason is simply that they don't want to.

Dawn R.

'Using their own stock' (I take this to mean stud dogs, which they may well have bred and breeding on bitches they have themselves bred) would ring warning bells with me.

Studs dogs have a (relatively) limited role to play with a breeders own bitches, otherwise that breeder would end up painting themself into a corner regarding genetic diversity - leading to problems ranging from the occasional blue eye, to deafness...and beyond!
Breeders study pedigrees, they look for a dog that will sit well with their own breeding and add something to their lines in terms of quality/conformation.....and law of s*d dictates that the dog is likely to be hundreds of miles away, but you get in your car and drive!! Some people may think that an exaggeration - but believe me, in (at least) one of my breeds it isnt!
If you want quality and diversity (whilst not compromising on type an temperament), you have to put in a lot of effort
in terms of time and money!
Health testing has a big part to play in breeding too - those tests are recommended for a reason!
Of course it might well be that other stud dog owners wouldnt let their dogs be used on these bitches.....

Do they not KC reg in general, or just your girl because of her blue eye?

It all smacks of breeding for money rather than the betterment of the breed - save money by not testing, not registering, not travelling to outside stud dogs...but hey they have good temperaments, so thats ok then!!!

I dont know these folks, so I am just going on what you have said above.


Enjoy your girl, she sounds a delight, and good on you for not breeding from her...cos sure as eggs is eggs, if you did it would be YOU that got stung. Genetic problems have a nasty habit of coming up to biting you on the b*m. Just cos the breeder got away with it, doesnt mean you would too.

Incidentally, just because she isnt KC registered, doesnt mean she hasnt got a full pedigree...it just means you werent given it...or that she isnt a purebred dallie!!

Can I just add that any ethical breeder who does all the health checks and hipscores and carefully breeds, would have temperament very high up on their list as well.
Lila looks a sweetheart and you obviously love her. That is the important thing. But with no history or health checked parents, you don't know what future health problems she may or may not have.
I think what people are trying to say on here that ethical breeders would do everything by the book. Get health checks done, hip scores done and with dallies register the pups with the KC. Anyone who falls short of this is not an ethical breeder.

Some really good advice given.
You may want to breed because she's lovely etc but what can she really add to the breed,you say she isn't KC reg,so therefore you can't trace her relatives and have no knowlege of any health problems within those lines.

It always worries me when breeders say they have used there own stock,or both parents can be seen,most breeders will travel the length of the country for a suitable dog to mate there bitch with.

Two breeders i know of,have both had litters this week,both had problems,one of the bitches has come down with black toxic masistis,so therefore at the vets on a drip and unable to nurse pups,so the breeder had to hand rear before somebody has loaned her a bitch that was ready to wean,the other had problems and lost a couple of pups,as well as having a deformed one.She handreared a little dog pup till he was four days old and then lost him.
I'm not saying this to put you off,but it can happen and is heartbreaking.

I also know that i would never allow Tyler,if he is used ever at stud to mate with a bitch that wasn't reg or health tested.Breeders that do this are as far as i'm concerned are not interested in putting the pups or breeds welfare first and can only see pound signs.

Ok , heres the part where everyone will dislike even more but please keep reading!.

When i got their they had many dogs/different breed * puppy farm bells ringing* , i was very surprised as i imagined your average older lady with 1 Dal and 100's of pics from the show ring etc but when we got their they had HUGE runs which then had a gape so they could go inside , their was Dals , Golden Retrievers, Labs etc all in different sections but they let us walk round to look at them ( as i asked) , they all seemed lovely - really healthy looking.
They also had a HUGE paddock that the breeding bitches went out in ( as their was loads of Labs running about ).

Inside people had to clean their feet before going though to puppies - i wasn't getting puppy ( by this time) so never went though - probley a good thing though!).

We went in the office room and lila was running about with us like some crazy thing lol , we where in their on our own so were checking out the walls , they had loads and loads of letters - from years so i think they had been breeding awhile.

I did my researched before i went so ask the questions about hearing tests , KC etc.

The lady said to be years ago their never was this hearing problem , its come from people trying to breed so close to the "perfect showline" that its coursed problems , thats why they only use their own dogs/ so so careful where they get them from.

She also said that she breed the very "old fashioned" dal look compared to dals today ( and she is different right their , as i preferred the other look) but feel for Lila!.

I had always been really against places like that but being their made me really think.

Some of you may like its really bad place etc , am not trying to make mass argument or anything - i really appreciate what you are saying.

Thanks
Janine

Oddly enough it is usually the breeders who declare there is no problem in a breed, are the very people who have contributed to the problem in the first place

Letters can be written by anyone, family, friends, people slipped a couple of quid...and lets face it, she is unlikely to have a letter on her wall that doesnt speak of her in glowing terms is she?
I dont know of any breeders that keep letters of reference on a wall...shoved in a draw maybe (cos they are nice to have, and its always great to know folks are happy with what you have bred)

This is a commercial breeder, breeding purely for profit - maybe she started out with good intentions, but making money is a big draw!

People can give it all the chat to prospective buyers, after all, you believed what she told you about health checks (and I dont mean that to sound rude) - no reason for you to disbelieve her...but this is why she keeps going!

I have to tell you, I would NEVER speak with prospective owners while there was a puppy in the room, because until I have spoken with them, and they have had their questions answered satisfactorily, neither party should feel obligated to proceed.
I always tell people that if they are not happy with a breeder (be it me or someone else) or they are at all uneasy with what they are old, or the answers to any questions they may have - then walk away.

It is a whole lot easier to walk away if you dont have a cute puppy flying about I can tell you.

Your Lila is lovely girl I am sure, but her breeder is at the very best a 'commercial breeder', and while I actually dont have a problem with that, what I do have a problem with is churning out pups from parents that are not health tested, and then filling innocent purchasers full of excuses for not doing so! Just because a dog looks well cared for on the outside, there is no excuse for not caring for it on the inside.

This would have set alarm bells ringing for me straight away,how can they be so sure there dogs have no health problems when they are failing to health test,in this day and age there is and can be no excuse for that, along with not registering pups,that is in my opinion nothing more than a BYB who add more problems to a breed than show breeders who do everything by the book,to insure the welfare of the pups they produce and the future of the breed.
Just to add,Any breed of dog that is predominatly white can be deaf.

Excellent post Debs!

"The lady said to be years ago their never was this hearing problem , its come from people trying to breed so close to the "perfect showline" that its coursed problems , thats why they only use their own dogs/ so so careful where they get them from."

There is actually a grain of truth in this. Of all the breeds that suffer colour related deafness, the reason the Dalmatian has the highest incidence is because breeders/judges insist that patched dogs are not acceptable in the showring or for breeding. One sure way to lower deafness in the breed would be to accept patching.

Now if this breeder was following a programme of lowering the risk in her lines by breeding only from patched, no blue eyes and BAER testing everything, then she may have a point.

I agree with others. It does sound more like a commercial enterprise than a dedicated breeder.

I have been looking for Lilas papers today as she was micro-chipped etc and ive totally lost them!!!.
Have no idea what happened to them since i got her , totally forgot all about them... maybe i will get a chance to go back to the breeder and have a snoop around lol - least i still have their phone numbers!

You are absolutely right!
Also, the problem HAS always been around, but the BAER test has not, so it is the KNOWLEDGE of incidents of deafness that has increased as well. A few years ago I was told that only 15% of Dalmatian breeders have the BAER test done, the breed clubs hold stats from the testing centres on numbers tested and if you compare that to numbers in registered litters - not even counting unregistered - you can get an idea of the situation.

Hiya
I have only just read this post.
For one i would imagine at the least she isnt registered because she has a blue eye. - It is highly undesirable and a breed fault.
Other reasons could be that she is registered but is unsuitable for breeding so the papers are withheld so that puppies cannot be registered. As well as the many reasons already mentioned
A pedigree gives you the knowledge of where she is from - what her faults are (and she will have them weather you know about them or not) and what you need to improve on and try to avoid.
The lack of a pedigree is like taking a shot in the dark, for many generations to come too.
For example bad temprement Will always come out - she may not have but if a dog in her pedigree does your puppies might have awful temprements:-(

Is she hearing tested ?
Are her sire & dam tested ??

Health is of major importance and if you dont know her background you cannot be aware of allsorts of hidden problems that could br there... megaosofagus, (ok i cant spell!) epilepsy, kidney stones, liver problems, eye problems, Hip / Elbow displasia.
Breeders spend immense amounts of money ensuring these dont occur - or occur as little as possible, ove rmany years of hard work.
You would be starting from scratch and could encounter all of the above !

Have you gone through the breed standard and made a list of each asset & fault she has - (this can be found on the kennel club website.) When you have a deep knowledge of all her assets and faults only then can you think about if she is right for breeding. & only then can you begin to look for a dog who will compliment her and her pedigree
You have already answered your own question, the answer is no she isnt suitable she has a blue eye, and no family history.
The breed standard is there to ensure the breed is as it should be - the correct height, shape, etc - or it would end up not being a dalmatian :smt002

Why is it you are looking to breed ?

90% of a litter will not be used for breeding but will go to "pet" homes. It doesnt make them any less special it just means that in the future the breed will be how it should be and still ahev the traits it was once origionally bred for
We are quite unique in that dalmatians can have soooo many things against them even with the most perfect matings ! :twisted: spotting, hearing all add to the difficulty of the breed.

Enjoy your girl
I am sure she has many wonderful dally traits, but when considering breeding any dog the question of is it for the good of the breed should be a main question to be asked :smt001

If you are looking for another dalmatian and that was your reason for breeding take a look at our site there are lots of links to good breeders, and the breed club where there is Loads of info if you want it.

All the best
Jules xxx

Any good breeder would welcome you with open arms and be interested in how their bundle of spots has progressed
Why not just ask them outright ?
Even if you suspect they are puppyfarmers they could still tell you lots of useful information about your baby

Jules xx

Just wanted to point out that the OP is not wishing to breed her Dal, just asking questions about her Dals breeder.

Janine,

I haven't read all posts but the general temperament of dalmatians is mad and loony! There are the exceptions but by not health testing you could end up with dogs with HD or deafness and a dalmatian would not be happy not being able to expel that energy that they have naturally.

Many people have deaf dogs, not so many have deaf dalmatians. Dalmatians are difficult anyway, but harder when deaf and that's why they often come up in rescue, or worse get killed running into the road.

How would you have felt if Lila wasn't hearing tested and turned out to be unilaterally deaf?
Your beautifully natured dog, suddenly snaps at you because you've approached her from the wrong side. Unilateral deafness in dogs is difficult to detect, they seem to hear perfectly fine, until a child or other family member approaches them on the wrong side and gets bitten because the animal is surprised.

Dalmatians bolt, fact. Recall is hard enough to teach a dally, but to teach a half deaf dalmatian to come when called is a lot more difficult! If you call them from the wrong side, or the wind is blowing the wrong way, it won't hear you

In my opinion there is no excuse for not health testing. Absolutely no reason, if you can't afford to health test you shouldn't be breeding and if you can't be bothered to take them for the tests, then how are you going to be bothered to handraise a litter if the mother rejects them?!

Sorry Janine

In my opinion, nobody with that many dogs of different breeds can specialise in any breed and know enough about them and do you really think that that woman went and spent time with each of those dogs every day?! Getting them out to new places and meeting different dogs. Ok, so they had dogs to play with and run with, but it's the same place over and over, dogs need variety!

The deafness is caused by the gene that contributes to the white coat - I've not read up on this that much but it has NOTHING, bar NOTHING to do with show breeding.
Dalmatians go into the ring just as they would go to work, and that is how they should be bred. If you're breeding dallies to be pets, fair enough but they should still have the same stamina, strength and personality as a working/show dog - otherwise it's not a true dalmatian, surely?!

My youngest dog is a show dog. I'd love to work her with horses but don't have anywhere to do it, however, due to the fact that dallies were bred as guard dogs (to guard horses and passengers) she has a strong guarding instinct and I love to see it, as it's what she's supposed to be.

Breeding a dalmatian for the show ring is basically breeding a dalmatian that could carry out it's job, not breeding unhealthy versions so that they look better.

Dalmatians on the whole are NOT "mad loonies" !!!!!!! and i resent such a comment !!!!

If a working dog - of any breed - is not given the attention and purpose it may choose to be unruly. BUT guidence and training IS easy with Dalmatians of the correct temrement, and comes naturally because they WAnt something to do and love pleasing their owners !!!!!!!

If you have a mad dalmatian maybe it either isnt getting the excercise, training or attention he needs ?
Or course temprement comes into it too. But you cannot get a dog whose purpose is to work - and be an endurance dog to adapt to a city style life overnight.

A happy dog is a well trained dog

Jules xx

ps if you want help finding someone to ride out with - or a carriage to go out with give me a shout i am sure we can find someone for you !!!! xxx