Punish the Deed not the Breed - But How? Discussions

Household A is asking for trouble unless they firstly learn to read and secondly go and buy some books about dog training in general and their specific breed in particular.;-) That much is for sure.

There has been some doubt cast on canine intelligence and the importance of them knowing their place and the limits of acceptable behaviour. A well adjusted dog who will be unlikely to cause any trouble will be well 'aware' of all this! I believe that aware is an appropriate word. After all, surely when it all goes wrong and attacks happen, it's because the dog has perceived (Become aware.) of a threat?

We are not dealing with dumb (i.e. stupid.) creatures here! Thinking that is us over evolved primates being arrogant.

No Az, I still dont agree. There are thousands of homes that have dogs of all breeds, never socialised, never trained etc. and they never have a problem. If you look at problems of late in the show ring, I have witnessed Rottweilers, Alaskan Malamutes, Bullmastiff and a Field Spaniel all go to attack the judge, 3 of them actually biting them. Now are these dogs not properly socialised?, (please bare in mind that one of the dogs is a champion and one of the others has 2 cc's) Have they not recieved any training? would you consider an owner of Bullmastiffs for over 25yrs and inexperienced person with that breed?

I think its fair to say that dogs turn for no apparent reason, they are animals, and putting anthromorphic qualities in them is unfair, they just are not human. I dont doubt that some folk that own dogs are plain stupid, but if you want to compare dogs to people, then you can in the way that many stupid people have children, but thay dont all turn out bad, neither do the children of murderers turn out to murder themselves. Triggers that spark off dogs may be microscopic to us, but to a dog is a key that triggers a response to attack, and you only need look on here Az at the amount of threads saying "my dog attacked another dog" and then they say they have never done it before, and also threads of dogs biting people but they have never done it before.

I know you put a lot of faith in training dogs, but its not the be all and end all, and I will still state that no matter how well trained your dog is, it is still a dog.
Dawn.

I've been following this with interest

I think Dawn is right,

but I think that the important word there is 'apparent'. The dog WILL have its reason for attacking (unless there is a medical problem, which is not very common at all) - it's just that humans are not going to understand that reason as we're not dogs. The owners may have misinterpreted or just not recognised the signals the dog was giving that it was not happy with a situation or felt vulnerable/under attack itself. And thats where training comes in - it's not the dog being trained - it's the owner being trained in how dogs work, how dogs think, how to interpret what a dog is doing etc, as well as general responsible ownership skills.

I would be strongly in favour of compulsory identification of dogs and a dog licence. I wouldn't advocate compulsory dog training just to get the licence - like everyone has said the logistics of that are just too complicated. However basic training could be encouraged in other ways - perhaps pet insurance companies could offer lower premiums to owners/dogs who have completed accredited courses (the KC good citizen dog scheme is already in place and recognised for example). I would however build in powers that the dog warden could enforce compulsory training orders on an owner if they felt it necessary - if they received a complaint and investigated it for example, similar to schemes in some areas where parents have to attend parenting classes if their children receive ASBOs......I'm not for a minute suggesting giving dogs ASBOs obviously, as I consider it completely the owners responsibility not the dog.
Perhaps compulsory training could be required if you wanted to own certain breeds considered more of a risk - however I think you start to get into difficult territory there.

just on quickly...
Azz, yes, you would hope that the dogs in household b are better behaved etc...but not necessarily. The dogs in household a are the very dogs I think we have all been voicing concern about anyway.

Dogs are dogs, we have no real idea of how they perceive the world and we need to remember that all the time. They do not see the world in the same way as we do and we can train them and train them but the smallest thing could trigger them to bite etc and we would have no idea about what it was, no matter how well trained they are.

I think, we need to make owning a dog harder, actually getting one, change them from a throw away commodity into something that is hard to come by, in terms of where you get them from , papers etc etc etc. Perhaps even throw in a home check by a dog warden, then things will start to improve...but I don't see how training will help, it will just be an extra expense....

Again I agree with many in particular points made by Dawn and Ramble (and others ..or partially agree anyway) and I agree with Minihaha quote;

Each puppy bred would have a DLB , it would carry the details of the breeder and the breed (or crossbreed/breed not known ),the sire and dam and would be handed over when a puppy is sold or a dog sold on.
A vet would also need to see the log book before a dog is vaccinated and the DLB would contain details of veterinary treatment.
Each dog would carry an identification either a chip or a tattoo of some kind, this could be done with the initial vaccination.

Details of each dog would be submitted and entered on a central database with a website, the information could help trace lost and stolen dogs, the veterinary information would be useful for tracking hereditary diseases, puppies could be cross referenced with breeders to see just who is breeding and selling what and this would help to keep track of puppy farmers included and back yard breeders who breed in one place and ship the puppies around the country to be sold in various outlets .

You see this is ALREADY happening with many of us anyway for example my latest two puppies were both microchipped when I collected them..details as we know are held with petlog, and should already follow the dog and so if it doesn't work now ..how could we make another different system work? A letter asking my vet to inform the breeder if at any time in it's life my dog shows signs of any hereditary disease and is held in their records. Details were all passed onto vet before innoculations, dogs also all wear tags. Advise is given re; diet, exercise and training and regarding my own past litters it is written into their contract that the puppies are returned to me, rather than sold onto any third parties etc. No puppies of mine have ever been released without full checks including checking with new vets (and I'm sure this is true of many). As stated before I am more than happy to do ANYTHING that will ensure puppies/dogs welfare throughout their lives but in all honesty I FAIL to see how compulsary training would benefit any of the dogs that we are concerned about? Do you think the idiots that keep them will give a dam about it or turn up for training etc. I honestly believe that it drive them further underground..you must remember dog fighting etc is an horrendous but money making affair and people always have and always will evade the law to make money. And for all the other reasons already stated it would never work.
It's good to see such passion and desire to improve the environment in which canine friends co-exist, but the stark reality is that it may make it more difficult to unearth them. Sorry just my opinion

I agree with mini and Kath (and I have to say I'm shocked at this....
Again I agree with many in particular points made by Dawn and Ramble
me and dawn being agreed with in the same sentence and about the same thing...blimey!!!!

Mini's post is fantastic and I wish I'd written it. I couldn't agree with it more.
I really do think the main thing that should be done is a compulsory registration system. It would cost a lot initially, but I think would pay for itself in the end, with fees etc being paid and fines for dogs with no'DLB'.

X_rose_X I read your post on gaining a license to own a dog via proving your dog is trained, well my preferred breed is Bullterrier`s followed closely by Staff`s.
Now, I`ve found Staffies to be quiet amenable to training, Bullterriers on the other hand are an whole different kettle of fish.
I remember going to pick up my first Bullterrier who I called Jack, this dog loved people ssssooooooo much but was a nightmare to train. I would train him a minimum of 15 minutes a day, every day and take him to dog training classes on Sunday`s.
From the second his paws touched tarmac to getting to the gate where the training was held, he would pull like a train. Now bear in mind at that time I was a very atheletic 13 1/2 stone at the time.
Jack could do it all, if he wanted to and it did have to be if he wanted to. He could do the German & English heal, sit, stay, right and left turn etc.(Wouldn`t recall at all well.)
But after a year of literaly sore hands (he`d do it all for half the training session then damn well do as he pleased for the other half), we came to the test, we got the grand total of minus 10 out of 10. Frustrating, embarrasing, humiliating, disheartening you name it, I felt it.
I did all this despite being told by his breeder`s that Bullterrier`s are virtually untrainable especially for recall (the breeder is a very reputable breeder from the show world,they`ve also done articles for dog magazines about Bullterrier`s.)I feel that they were correct with the advice they gave me but I tried.
My current Bullterrier Archie is a lot better at the recall but not what I`d call anywhere near perfect, but I`ve kept his training a lot simpler. Plus I have my Staffie bitch called Calla, if I call her Archie always follows, I`ve also discovered that Archie recalls to the sound of a sqeaky toy every time.
Now if I had to take either of the Bullterrier`s to be tested by some government appointed official what would happen if he/I failed,would they take him/them from me? I remember this happening in Germany & a few of you probably do as well.
Now any test might sound reasonable to people who own collies, spaniels, poodles, gsd`s but I happen to like my Bullterriers. Would this breed die out because of it`s inherent obstinacy not to conform? Not to do as others do!
Now that would be sad, just so we could conform to what a faceless bureucrat decides is correct. My next comment is not meant to be disrespectful, but I get the impression that a lot of people haven`t thought this through or read everybodies post`s before posting on here.
The government would do what it wants to do, just like the last one did when it drafted the DDA and BSL with no input from anybody who might disagree with their views.

In defence of X_rose_X aka megan can I just add, this is a 16 year old girl who I think has some good ideas for one so young,
also I dont think anyone mentioned testing dogs, it was really test the handlers abitlity and knowlage, eg writen test, the bottom line being when would you test a dog? as a pup, at a year old or each year, cant see that working, some dogs learn quickly and some dont, and proof of the pudding is in your post eg, you learned from your first bull terrier and took what you gained from that and used it to your advantage with your second bull Ter, and have seen a marked improvement, I would hope the test if it did come down to testing dogs would be a temprament test and not be based on how well your dog does a left turn in healwork or if he can heal both ways ( As a dog trainer I have met a huge amount of dogs working ticket C obed and the dogs a compleat b******) to live with and with other dogs,
if you have a min read my post re: Article In dog world by John Hubble, I have several emails from him re: my methods of training, all very possitive, I have in the past been sneered at for my methods and what I put first, socilisation over training, would rather have a well socialised dog any day
shona

The problem with training and tests I think is that even those who we are trying to rid from the dog world, would probably be able to pass. Most bad dog owners I think are bad owners coz they are lazy and can't be bothered or have other motives for keeping dogs in a way that can make them a nuisance or danger. Just to use the ole car driver example again, there are plenty of idiots on our roads who somehow managed to pass a test so what would be different with a dog owning test. Say and do the right thing for an hour or whatever and there ya go.

Hate to pee on anyones parade but the simple fact is we need our existing laws to be used and then we wouldn't have the problems we have now on such big scale.

I tend to agree with Dawn and co'.
We've allways had dogs of varying breeds, two breeds being apparent 'dangerous dogs', none ever been taken to training classes etc, ever had problems? No.
Ever had dog agressive dogs, bearing in mind we owned staffords which people seem to think are born dog agressive, erm, with the exception of a rescue JRT (Polly)-no.
Have we ever had mass behavioural problems-no.
Okay so Ralph is nuts, admittedly, but thats down to what he is not that he is 'home trained', and i know there are many who will agree
Does it make us bad owners for not going to training classes?

I'm really sorry Ramble but........i actually agree with you!!
It seems to be that it could become a bunch of no-nothings dictating what they think is right..
Also..not everybody agrees on training methods..not every dog works well with certain training methods etc, who would decide if these cases would be 'exception', and how?
Who would decide in which case would which training method be appropriate etc, and how?
Tbqh, and this is not meant in any rude way, this doesn't even seem that 'good' in theory-let alone practise:?

Not at all, should not say this as a trainer but most training classes are regimental and very intimidating for a begginer, with competitive obed being at the fore front of all training, So long as your dog is socilised and happy to meet people great, I used to take my dogs to the fair, galas and the like just to socilise them, I have been there done the comp obed thing and to be honest I feel its so picky and tight that the dogs hate it, eg not happy with a sit at heal. there must be no gap between the handler and the dog, the rear must be as straight, im sure they have a mental spirit level and a notch off is lost points also the dogs paws shouldn't be a nano hair in front of the handlers feet or to far behind for that matter, what good is that to most owners, I had a dog trained to this level, and retired him at 5 years old, he was a gsd and although he done very well in the obed ring, he couldnt compeat with the collies, often he would sit and his tail would get cockedup so he would do this wiggle to sort it just before he planted his butt, he got docked points left right and centre for it, with one respectable trainer who told me to more or less kill the dog for it I thought enough is enough, this along with him losing confidence in the ten min stay with me out of sight where he would crawl along the ground lol untill he found me, tech he did not stand up but he could cover a good distance rapid at a crawl. I was then told to use a method ( THE BANSHEE) to stop him doing it, I said It was due to lost confidence as he had been on the scots- regin- team that year and with the extra training and comp also my stress went up the higher we got up the ranking, as when you comp for you thats great but when there is a team sat there and you dont want to let them down the stress starts to show, I said I would go back to puppy stays and work it up, again laughed at, at this point I thought your all nuts ffs I have a great dog and I will not f-h-up for this,

many training clubs sad to say still live in the dark ages. me I prefer my way with lots of laughing, and dogs having a run and play and over the space of the evening we even manage to do a bit of training, lol

Thanks mini for highlighting those issues I truely hope the time doesn't come when all dogs would be muzzled and never off leash...I can only imagine that in it's self would lead to isues for dogs that were not a problem to begin with It would be awful

I agree with what mini said about the compulsary training and I think the other ideas mentioned are good. Mostly I would like to see much more restriction on breeders because that's where many of the problems start.

:? i dont know what you mean, i never said anything about getting a license or proving your dog is trained, what i meant is educating everybody, kids in primary school and high school (obviusly appropiate subjects for different ages) and educating all novice dog owners about what dogs really need, and explaining the best ways to train your dog, and then a test for ppl to do to make sure they understand all that is involved with having a dog and if you pass get a certificate to show breeders/rescues that you know the basics of how to look after the dog and prehaps once you acuire the pup/dog need to do some sort of formal training with it,

however this was just and idea, but every idea that we can come up with will have flaws in it thats just a fact of life,
(sorry for spelling typing fast here)

Thanks Shona
yes thats what i meant testing the handlers ability and knowledge

You make it sound like collies and gsd's are easy to train, trust me there NOT if rose(current bc) had to take a test just now she'd maybe get marks for being cute whilst doing 'face' and 'paw' and she'd pass 'sit' and 'down' exercise's but thats about it, her recall is only just there in class(and then thats only if a new dog hasnt come to class) outside its non exisitent, and we've been training her since we got her at 7weeks old, shes now 1yr... our last gsd took over a year to train to a level of a well behaved dog, to make judgements like collies,gsd, spaniels etc are easy to train(as it seemed you were hinting at that) is just like ppl assuming EBT,staffies, rotties, boxers etc etc are all nasty evil dogs when i know for a fact that they are not, its all in how they are raised, and yes i have met those breeds before and handled a staffie and 2 rotts(only 6 months old but there still big dogs by tht time), and where my dads old workshop was there was a wonderful white bull terrier who wandered around all the unit owners looking for pets, and was great with me n my bro i was 5yrs-8yrs when my dad had tht place

if you were hinting that collies etc are easy to train then that proves my point ppl need to be educated more on dogs... ok they may pick things up quick sometimes but thats only when/if they want to.

when i posted first time about training etc i had read all the posts as there was only 2-3 pages, i havent read all the rest of this thread yet, as i quite honestly havent had the time,


obviously my training/educating/testing thingy was just an idea and in all honesty yes it does have flaws to it, but so does licensing,

the only thing i can think of just now is to petition the goverment to drop the bsl and enforce a punish the deed not the breed law, ie the owners with bigger fines and longer jail sentence and depending on how/why the 'deed' happened also ban them from owning animals(any kind)

Hi Guys - just want to add a quick note to say it's great to see you all taking part and coming up with suggestions

It doesn't matter if we all don't agree, what matters is that your ideas and suggestions are put down and archived. I'm quite sure that if the 'problem' becomes worse, and the govt are forced to re-assess the situation, this time round they are more than likely to read through such discussions to get a broader picture of what people think.

So please don't think you are wasting your time taking part - your thoughts and opinions really do count.

What about the new system with horses, every horse must have a passport, it is not so much the owner that is licenced but the animal, and if the animal moves on the passport goes with it, it would need to include any med defects, any warnings given by council, police, and so on, breeding, breeders details, number of owners, and on and on, again this is not by any means full proof, but it could be a benifit, with all breeders having to issue one with every pup giving all medical details and so on, kind of a mix of licence for dog not owner crossed with a vehicle V5 document, ............, just a thought, I think the other thing I feel at them moment is we are all going on about SBT, EBT . Boxers Rotts, and x staffs and so on,
all perfectly legal in this country, we must remember that pit bulls have been banned for 15/16 years now and its really them that this is all about!
In another thread mini has already said not in these words but my interpratation of it, " why throw all these breeds into a very hot pot at the moment? its almost saying HOY I HAVE 7 DANGEROUS DOGS) eg my seven rotts, I dont feel bad ducking my head down and hopeing this flys by quickly I feel its not aimed at my breed, I do feel for people with bull x's and the like who are being targeted by nosey napps and having the RSPCA knocking on there door. it must be awful, I pray no dog that is not PBT is grabbed and even worse PTS,
This breed has been banned for such a long time now that we should not really be seeing any by now, But I believe there are cases where they can still brought into the country within the law, mabey this should be stopped,
I dont have an educated opinion of the breed as I have never met a PBT but I do have a friend that used to breed them many years ago, I talked to her about them several years ago and her words were " they are a breed that should be allowed to die out".
We have laws in this country already covering banned breeds but as so often the case they were very badly put together in a hurry, and more than likely made up by some bloated MP that has never even owned a dog but stood in poo once and there after his opinion was " Damn them all to hell"

Okay...now I'm in agreement with Luke as well...and I fear was classed in the Dawn and co comment........ :smt002

I think the DLB that's been suggested would be just like the horse passports you mentioned Dougiepit. I think having to fill in lots of forms, get pups microchipped and ensure they have an up to date and accurate DLB is going to go quite a long way to discouraging back street breeders. Making sure vets always see the DLB would also help. The more this particular idea is developing the better it sounds and the more workable.

And those who don't comply..... would they then be reluctant to take their dog(s) to the vet, denying them what me be very necessary treatment??