Punish the Deed not the Breed - But How? Discussions

I feel that in the first instance a simple measure would be to have compulsory microchipping and enforce the law pertaining to tagging. It would be simple to check and enforce and wouldn't cost much for the dogs owners.
Becky

I don't disagree with you Becky, mine are all chipped that would help with dogs that roam etc.

We all have to make sacrifices. Should I have a tantrum because I am deprived of the company of an african Serval (highly trainable and sociable animals), because doing so would mean I have to have a wild animals licence and adequate housing? As I said earlier, owning a dog isn't a god given right, it's a privilege and we have to do our bit - if that means spending money on what, to be honest, we should anyway, so be it. The only added cost is a test fee and a licence which would be less than £100 - the other costs relating to training etc should be things people should be doing anyway, and it's because they're not so many dogs are ending up dead, and 'accidents' happening.

Is this just about BSL? Yes and no. It's intertwined. BSL came about because of the situation regarding dogs. These proposals aim to deal with that situation and just because they so happen to address other bigger problems too, it doesn't mean we should discount them or seperate them.

There's absolutely nothing undoable in what's been proposed.

Owning a dog is not a right,but a priveledge which should be earnt.So regardless of size-all owners should have compulsory training with how to care,train and generally look after their dog.I would like this to include the basics like food,water,excercise and medical care which many people appear to forget about.Compulsory permanent identification like chipping or tattoo to verify the dogs details would also be good.

Employ more dog wardens to follow up nuisance reports.The money is already available to pay for additional wardens with all the VAT we pay on vet bills,treats,food,toys etc etc.Currently,most councils have one warden who has to cover many many towns and villages which is unfeasable for a good job to be done.

Any owner who allows/encourages their dog to attack another person or other dog including organised fighting should be banned from owning any animal for life coupled with a large fine.

Hadn't noticed anyone having tantrums myself but still, if you want to own an african serval you would no doubt be in the minority, the laws are already in place before you purchase your serval you are aware of them, and if you still wish to proceed that is your choice. I fail to see how that compares to something like 6millon households with dogs, the vast majority of whom have never given anyone any grief in their lives.
Why should we all be spending money on training, you can do it perfectly well yourself as long as you are committed enough to put in the effort to know what is needed and how to achieve it. Most well behaved dogs have never been to a training school in their life, why do those people who own those dogs have to jump through hoops. Owning a dog may be a priviledge but not a priviledge earnt by parting with money, you can't buy everything in life somethings mean a damn sight more when you have earnt them, and you earn them in this case by reaping the reward of a well behaved dog or dogs. Dogs don't end up dead usually because of lack of training they end up dead because the owners didn't care, and you can't force people to care and care isn't bought and paid for either. I own one of those accidents you are all so keen to eradicate and he is a wonderful, well behaved, well trained dog that has never been to school, I paid nothing for him and consider myself damn lucky to have him and I make no apologies for his existence either.

And or imprisonment

I think the licence is a good idea, and i would be willing to pay for it its just a case of how many wouldnt be willing :?

I also dont think compulsay training should be criteria. There are thousands of people that are not physically able to attend training classes etc, should these people be excluded from owning dogs? What about all the dogs that dont pass these "tests" I can guarantee you there will be plenty of dogs and people that dont, should the dog be PTS? what would be done with it? Would it be an owner fail, or a dog fail? Would said owner be able to try again with the same breed? or another one? or will he not be able to have a dog period?
Dawn.

What do you mean you own one of those accidents? I was referring to children being killed/mauled by untrained, unsocialised, or incorrectly brought up dogs.

As I said a few posts ago, your proposals don't really do anything to actually help dogs, even them being a viable deterrent is arguable. I think many of us need to stop and think about how far we are going to let things get before we actually say enough is enough and do something about it.

Maybe it will take a few more 'accidents' and perhaps from a rottie next time or a dobe, then we start to see more breeds getting added to the dda (which is happening right now in other countries). Maybe non dobe or rottie owners will think the same as you do now... until it suddenly hits their breed too.

If there's one thing I wouldn't mind paying towards, that is helping dogs live a happier, healthier and more fulfilling life. Yes I appreciate that there are many many people like yourself out there that probably don't need to be take the test, but for the sake of dogs wouldn't you be willing to? You would be helping set up a system that will not only help protects dogs today, but all those yet to be born. You could have an impact on their fate, you really could.

Why not? And how will they take their dogs for a walk?
For anyone with a genuine disability, perhaps they can book a private trainer?

Of course not. To make it clear - it's not the dog being tested. The owner is. Just like a car test, they'll need to re-sit.


These are all just ideas right now, they need YOU to help morph them into workable solutions.

It will boil down to those who want to try to change things, and those that don't.

I was referring to us humans for the training Dawn-not dogs,but i should have really referred to it as assessment! I just feel some people walk into dog ownership with their eyes shut and are not prepared to put any work into its development and then it can become a problem.

Ok I misunderstood your reference to accidents as an awful lot of this thread has been about breeding and who and what should be allowed etc,
I actually think the breed involved in these attacks is irrelevant, I think the same rules should apply to all dogs and all owners, I have said so many times all dogs have the potential to be dangerous. You only have to look at the breeds involved in dog attacks to be aware of that, there is even a recorded death of an infant by a papillon I think it was. We should all be held legally responsible for the actions of whatever dogs we own and be punished by the law for their actions as if they were our own actions, that's hardly a cop out is it. Also I am extremely aware of dog legislation in Europe as I have been investigating the possibility of moving abroad in the non to distant future and obviously I need to be aware of exactly what that entails for my chosen breed the Dobermann. I am willing to surcumb to temprement testing on my dogs which is what is required in order that I may take them with me. I also don't actually have a problem with them being muzzled in public should they fail the test. I don't think they would fail the test but I am aware of the possibility and what it would mean.
How the hell would me or anyone like me taking a test help anyone else, and the kind of people that own the dogs involved in the recent attacks don't want to know how to train their dog in the way we do they have an entirely different agenda.

I completely agree Steve. It's that lack of consideration and 'decency' that makes my blood boil.

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For those who are against the proposals so far, please do share your own proposals/solutions that you feel will work.

Don't worry about the logistics for now, come up with a solution that will eradicate the problems we find in the dog world today - mainly:

• Dangerous dogs (due to incorrect upbringing, lack of training/direction)
  
• Unhappy dogs (due to lack of education of owners not being able to train dogs sufficiently, keeping their minds occupied, giving them a fulfilled existance)
  
• Unhealthy dogs (due to poor breeding, poor diet/irresponsible ownership)
  
• Dogs being killed (due to lack of education/irresponsible people buying them then discarding them/discarding them because they are unable to cope with problems brought about due to their own lack of education/training knowledge etc)
  

We're all ears.

You would be helping by supporting the system that will do it's best to eradicate uneducated dog-owners. Which will do it's best to help eradicate the problems outlined in my post above, as described thoughout this thread

So you are assuming ALL dogs have to be walked? I mean what about the ill ones, injured ones etc.. those that have chronic problems? Compulary training is full of flaws Az, you know yourself having this board alone tells you of sooo many dogs that couldnt possibly attend training classes due to their temperament problems, its just not feesible.

I have ownerd dogs all my life and not once have I ever taken them to obedience classes, why should I? You cant dictate to people.
Dawn.

[*]Dangerous dogs (due to incorrect upbringing, lack of training/direction)
Thats certainly not always the case, there are dogs born bad and will attack whatever you do, and you wont predict or prevent it.

I am scared to say this...but I totally agree with Dawn on this...

Have quickly read through that last couple of pages and I'm afraid I am also against compulsory training or courses. I just don't think it's workable or that the government would put enough money into it. I do still stick by my previous post about compulsory registration and a 'log book' etc...
I don't think it would be possible to licence every breeder but it would be possible to ensure every breeder provided papers..make it illegal to sell pups through newspapers or the internet...only through dog wardens perhaps?????

Or the kennel Club

Just had another brain wave

It could also help, if criminals were unable to obtain a licence, unless they had been out of trouble for a certain amount of time :?
This wouldnt include petty things, just people who had a record for being voilent/abusive, and drug dealers.

Maybe? :? It might work, or it might not

I can't see compulsary training working either, however I do think maybe that the UK should introduce compulsary temperament testing on ALL dogs of all breeds maybe then owners whose dogs passed this test should then be granted a licence to keep them...Although I wouldn't know how this would work with regards to making people take their dogs to be temperament tested..

I can't see how to be honest, and I am really not trying to be difficult, and I should be doing my packing rather than debating but hey I would go along, pay my money, be taught what I already know and take a place on a training scheme that someone in need of assistance might need. Who would train us all, where would they all materialise from, training schemes that are any good already have waiting lists. I think your motives are fine but I really can't see how it is workable. I think you are trying to cover too many issues at once and really do fail to see how it would stop further attacks, when the people that own these dogs are not mr and mrs average dog owner. I accept that frequently mr and mrs average could do with a little help but they are at liberty to seek it whenever they choose, and that doesn't alter the fact that these attacks have mainly been in the home to family members.

I'm in shock too me and Ailsa both agreeing at the same time with Dawn