Punish the Deed not the Breed - But How? Discussions

You will hear most people against BSL say it, but how and what is an effective alternative?

Remember, if you want to get public and political support, a system is needed that deals with the current problems better than the DDA is at present - whether that be higher penalties, compulsory training for dog owners, a licensing scheme, or....?

What do you propose and why do you feel it is a better proposition?

I think compulsory training for dog owners is a good idea, but the same would take place like the old dog license, a large percentage would not bother.

This is the problem, no matter what we all think of, there will always be one thta ignores it
If something else replaces the BSL it would only be responsible owners who take any notice, having said that i do think BSL should be scrapped :?

Maybe thats what we need to look at then.... how will the new measures be enforced ;-)

To be honest, I think a compulsory training scheme will have much more positives - it will mean there are many more dog owners out there who know more than perhaps they would normally about dogs/their behaviour/their training/the law regarding them, etc

This will mean there are more educated people out there - this will mean there are more educated people out there who's knowledge may rub off on others. This will mean that more people will know whats wrong and right - meaning the real idiots will find it harder to get away with what they do.

So you see... it's not such a bad idea after all

there would have to be some type of incentive to encourage people to be trained.
discount of KC charges
reduced vaccinations
discount of dog food
The list goes on, but again how many would agree

But how would the government/ police (whoever it would be up to) make sure everyone attends classes?
Or would this be something that had to be done before purchasing a dog?

I think the best incentive would be that it means we're allowed to own a dog of pretty much our choice. If somethings not done, we may find that all but the smallest of dogs is all that's left to choose from (with everything else being on the DDA!).

It's whats been worrying people for a long time now, that more and more breeds will get added to the list (as what's happened in some other countries).

Would that include the dogs that are already on the DDA?

I don't know Sara - thats the whole point of this section. Everyone needs to pull together and work this out, because if we don't, someone else will.

Do we want to leave it up to the media and bureaucrats?

Get your brain in gear Sara... how do you think we can make an alternative work? Perhaps the best scheme to compare to would be the driving test....?

Not many people would own a dog if a test was compared to a driving test, its bloody hard to pass

Back to the subject though, ill get my thinking cap on

Do you mean could we own them?

If so I don't know, but would the DDA be needed if an alternative solution dealt with the problems that the DDA has failed to?

In other words people already own those dogs. The DDA is not working, some people say it can't work. We need to look at the original problem, and then find a solution that works.

The original problem was about dangerous dogs, and to a lesser extent, anti-social behaviour by some of them due to their irresponsible upbringing.

Of course many would say the dogs are not the problem, its the owners that are. Hence the phrase, punish the deed not the breed.

I agree with the above,

yes the best incentive would be the above, i think if a compulsary training scheme was put in place everyone should all have to do a basic level but some people should have to do more depending on the breed they want, as not all dogs are the same and some breeds are harder to train, look after etc.

the only way i could see this ever being put in place by the goverment is if it was what the 'people' wanted, i.e. start a petion(sp?), write letters to local mp's aswell as the prime minster, i mean there is quite a few dogsey members now so that would be quite alot of people already and we could pass the word around friends etc. asking them to sign the pettion and write to the gov - maybe someone could write out a basic outline for a letter to the gov and then ppl could just print it, sign it and send it.

I mean the only way to ever change anything is to stand united and take action, not being offensive or anything but whilst ranting about all the pit bull/bsl/dda on here is a good release for people it dosent help achive anything other then a heated disscussion/debate, which just winds some people up and whatnot, but if we put all that energy into doing the above(or something like it, or just to stop all the staffie/staffie x/bull breed owners being targeted by the police, rspca etc.) there is more of a chance of things changing and us seeing the changes that we all want, as i know none of us want anymore dogs to be put down need-lessly, ar any more children/humans hurt.

Whilst i agree with the saying punish deed not the breed, i dont think that the banned breeds should be unbanned til something like the compulsary training Azz sugested is in place and proving to be working.

The problem with something like compulsary training is how to make sure prople actually do that, as sara suggested i think testing should be before you purchase the dog and you need to show proof(certificate or something like that) that you have dont it, however there will still be puppy farmers, byb etc. and the only way to stop those is to educate the people on such things(which should also be part of the training) and by educating children whilst in primary school about all animals but especially dogs and how to act safely around them and once older and in high school educate on the other aspects such as puppy farmers, byb's and stuff like that.


I know some people will come back with the whole we've had licencies before and it didnt work, and maybe something like this wouldn't work but i think Azz come up with a good idea and this is just my take on how to implement it and make it work,


I'm not tryin to start another debate or anything i just think that this would be the best way to deal with this for the 'dogs' as at the end of the day it is them that are getting hurt the most.

Sorry for any spelling mistakes but ive been up all night(cant sleep),sorry for the length, didnt want to split it in to 2-3 posts

Also anyone who after say a year(roughly once all the little problems - if there are any- have been sorted out) of this getting put in to place is still breeding a banned breed/ fighting dogs of any kind/ have a dog but have not done the training can be fined upwards of £500 and for fighting and breeding banned breeds a prison sentence which is a minimum of 2-3 yrs and can be unlimited as to how long after that,
however the responsible people that already own dogs would not get fined so long as they were booked into do the training and are just waiting to go do it.

once people were acting more responsible the banned breeds could be unbanned(if that was the best choice)

this of course is a hypothetical idea of what it would/could be like.

Or if anyone has any better ideas for the 'puishment' for such things then it would be intresting to hear them.

Or all dogs must be of a recognised breed. The breed must have it's own breed club, breeder register, code of ethics, hold 'events' to prove that they have the best interests of the breed at heart.
If someone wishes to create a new breed then they would need to set up a club which has clear and concise statement as to what it is they want to achieve.
The breeding of cross breeds willy nilly should be banned?
Becky

Personally I think our first step is to make more people aware. I showed my sister that video on here about pitt bulls and she didn't realise there was a problem. I also forwarded that onto a few narrow minded people at work who since the pitt bull attack have put Dobies and Rotties within the same bracket.

I would like to see more posters/stickers on cars/houses highlighting the problem. I see quite a few 'Not just for xmas' stickers.

I appreciate this is not the only problem Dog lovers are facing, but its a big one that has hit us now which we need to nip in the bud. Before more people, like Roxy, get investigated for no reason!

Posted this on the other thread re Dangerous Dogs:

I think part of the solution is to "get rid" of as many breeders as possible. Some BYB can be a good thing, but only if they have high standards and the dogs welfare in mind.

Having a National Dog Register and a National Breeder Register, and having some sort of organisation to deal with it. Not the Police or RSPCA, as they have other things to deal with...

Just some thoughts

I've given this a lot of thought, as most of us have lately.

The thing is, it's a minority as usual who spoil it for the majority and to an extent that will not stop.

I think we need to make dog ownership hard, not expensive, but hard.

Dogs at the moment are being used as weopons, weopons need to be registered.

Every dog in the country needs to have papers, as I suggested on the other thread, like a car registration. They should be registered at birth by the breeder, the breeder should pay for this.

When the puppy goes to a new home it should be chipped with a chip relating to it's registration number and have a tag for it's collar that must be worn at all times with it's registration number and a central phone number for people to call if the dog is lost or stolen etc.

If the dog changes home the new details MUST be registered in it's 'log book' like a car. It's details must include breed, date of birth ,previous addresses etc.

I truly don't believe that a 'test' would work. I think it would be too expensive to run and the government would never put money into it. A compulsory registration scheme would though as it would just take an advertising campaign to tell people every dog must be registered by a certain date and that from now every dog should have official papers. If they haven't the owner should have a minimum £5000 fine, the penalties have to be steep. There should be spot checks in parks and on the streets and dog wardens should call to known dog homes...almost like a tv license thing....

An excellent idea! There are far too many puppies being offered for sale in freebie newspapers, on advertising boards in shops & on posters on lampposts etc.

If the only breeders were reputable breeders they would be far more selective about who they let the pups go to. Perhaps buyers who have to sign a contract where they had to provide the breeder with details of the the dog's vet, insurance company and microchip details etc.

As to stop the 'man in the pub' selling his litters to people who want dogs for fighting / to look hard / as a fad so can't be bothered to pay a lot etc - I just don't know.

Well there's some good ideas thus far and I feel that education as always is a good thing. However, it would be a nightmare to enforce and lets face it again the responsible owners already ensure they are educated in their chosen dogs welfare. Puppy packs and training guides are provided by the KC and responsible breeders, along with a life time of follow-up support. Dog liscence never worked before and likewise doubtful if it would again. Compulsary training..seems good but, again I doubt it could ever be achieved...what about us out in the sticks who already WANT to attend classes ect., but there just aren't any? Only the responsible owners would bother anyway, which is why I believe the ONLY way is for us a dog loving community to sort it out. The breeding and sale is the only practical way I feel and all dogs should have 'some' sort of papers which state necessary check, advice, training and support have been given, along with the puppy/dog. As a VERY ocassional (last litter coming up 9 years ago) breeder I would NOT consider allowing any of my puppies to leave without this anyway. I know you will still get the 'underground' idiots but at least if all puppies and dogs had some sort of papers it would be easier to follow up reports ect. Only a thought and I know to some extent this is what the DDA was trying to achieve but if ALL breeeds and crosses (including) rescues had papers with vouched for them it would surely be easier to weed out the illegal ones?

Exactly! Every litter should be registered and have papers, whether accidental, home-breeders or a KC reg breeder