Are English Springer Spaniel's overbred? Discussions

I also wanted to include; Is the 'quality' of the breed beginning to fade, into the title but ran out of space!


I want to try and word this correctly so i do not offend, yet still get my point across. Do you think Springer's are becoming too overbred, and do you think the quality of these spaniels produced in such a way is beginning to fault(i.e temperament, physical looks etc)?

Okay reason I ask..i see quite a few springers around these parts, and see a fair few on various forums etc, and they seem to be of varied looks, and i'm not just talking about the differences between show type, field type, and those who fall in the middle!
I've seen so many springers which are really lanky, with very ellongated face, strangely set ears..and generally just a curious body shape, and i do not meant field type springers-these dogs look nothing like field types, well to me do not look like springers at all. Yet nine times out of ten when talking to the owners I get told they are KC registered with a 'good pedigree', in many cases to the untrained eye..a 'good pedigree' is one with lots of fancy names n 'sh ch' 'ftch' dotted about-to me this isn't a good pedigree, just one with some succesfull dogs in.
Also these 'slight' looking springers allways seem quite nervy and insane...and i mean more than even Springer standard! They do actually seems nuts..and I know Springer's are generally quite hectic, all over the place dogs..but this goes beyond that.

They just do not seem to be the image of a springer that I think of, nor the temperament of the biddable, loyal, good tempered spaniel that is what the true breed is. To me Dogsey hosts a good few good examples of springers, to me Rips' Isla, Het's Zack, Sal's Fenn and cause i'm biast Ralph aswell, look like Springers..and sound as if they have the desired springer character. All the springer's i've ever known have allways been quite 'solid' dogs, even the field types which is what I've mainly known, with great loyal,loving, charcters; but a lot of the springer's I see don't seem to be like this. I actually know of one that looks almost Collie'ish..but is a KC registered Springer Don't get me wrong I see a fair few good looking Springers, with matching charcters, knocking about..but it all does make me wonder.
Do you think Springer's are becoming 'overbred' as it were, in the sense too many are being bred willy nilly with not enough care about breeding stock, bloodlines, and the placing in suitable homes etc?
Hope I've made sense..apologies if I haven't:?

Aww thanks Luke, glad you think that of Isla!

In short the answer to your question is yes. At least I think so.

My first English Springer was born in 1984. She was a farm dog and bred to be worked, but she still looked like a Springer. Like you say many these days vary soooo much, with the emphasis being more on their working ability than how they look. I'll be honest I'm not keen on the latest strain of working Springers, they look so much like Collies now. IMO obviously.

Now of course you can say that the Show fraternity has done the opposite and bred them with over exagerated looks and less working ability. Which would be true, but now quite a few of the show kennels are recognising the Springers background and taking an interest in the working side, at least they were. With the docking ban this is unlikely to continue.

All the above reasons are why I travelled 600 miles to get Isla. I want a dog that looks like a Springer, is healthy, has a good temperament and has the ability to work.

How sad it is that it's so hard to find this in a breed these days.

Thanks Luke;-)
Difficult question,
In every single breed,i think you get irresponsible breeders that breed for one thing only,money
Not to sure if they are overbred but i would imagine they are,with the amount that pass through rescue.One thing that did surprize me while checking out a kennel of gundogs in shropshire,the working Springer doesn't seem to be Line bred as much as other breeds are.I also noticed that all dogs that he owns,Labs,Cockers and Springers,have to work.
There are loads of Springers around these parts,but to be honest i don't usually take much notice.There is a guy that lives in our village and he has some fantastic dogs,all springers,he breeds and also does gundog training,i often stop and watch him working his dogs,fantastic to watch a springer in action.
Fen's background isn't known to us but to me and hubby he is a typical Springer,eager to please and loves to retrieve,you can see quite clearly he has come from a working background,he loves running through brambles and undergrowth and around hedgerows.

I'm glad i'm not the only one who feels they are overbred, or to rephrase it 'bred not to their best' (as an uncle who has working gundog politely screamed down the phone at me when i used the term overbred).
When i found Ralph's breeder, I was only expressing an interest in the dogs they bred when contacting them..but they had a litter (which i had seen were available) and Ralph was the last pup remaining, i snapped him up. He is a nice type, in my eyes, not too showy..but not too field type. And i do not mean just in looks, but temperament wise.
I have seen so many really slight looking springers that are beyond wild and just tear off with rather red faced owners trying in vein to catch them. As Rips said, it seems to be too MUCH focus going on their working ability, which i do agree is a main factor, but surely conformation of looks and temperament should be a big factor when breeding too?
A friend of mine has a field type springer pup, but he is what I would expect of a field type springer. He looks NOTHING like a collie or an x breed, he looks like your image of a springer..just a little bit smaller/lighter with less hair,and is just calm compared to many field types I've seen of late.
But the faulting can't be laid all at the field type breeders as Rips said, i have seen some show type Springers who seem too have far too of an exadgerated skull..VERY VERY domed and with far too much feathering, would be totaly useless to have a dog that heavily feathered in the field, which regardless of being a show type, the spaniel should be able to do.
It just seems quite worrying how the breed seems to be having such worrying extremes from one type to another..very concerning indeed.

Something i just remembered i wished to add was concerning the docking ban, only working dogs are to be exempt from this ban yes?
Meaning to have a docked dog, going to a working kennel will be the only option?
Does this mean that if we want a docked springer, regardless of whether for gundog or working type pet, it will have to be a dog that bears little resemblance *sp* to the springer as we know it?

I think it's like any breed, once people start breeding them for the sake of breeding they don't pay attention to what is required, either breed standard or work or whatever so very quickly they will start to lose type etc.
I used to groom a 'cavalier' that was about 18" at the shoulder! Also had a similar size 'bichon', both puppy farm dogs.
Becky

Luke

You may well have visited the The English Springer Spaniel Club site but if not follow this link to the 'code of ethics'. Have a look at the members gallery too. There's some good examples of some of the differences you've pointed out !

http://www.englishspringer.org/Julia/pages/pageone.htm

PS

I'm on a diet now coz you didn't mention me !

Fingal

I'm sorry Phil, i knew there was another springer..i remember your fingal cause of his lovely head, oooh and Helens Springers are good examples of the field type too just to add these in!
And thankyou, i never have actually been on that site!

hey luke.....what about my 2 babies??????

i do know what you mean though luke. i've seen quite a few 'strange' looking springers. i have a picture in my mind of how i think a springer should look, and some of them fall so short of that image. they have really big square heads, very stocky almost like a staffy, and their eyes look really 'hard' if you know what i mean. i'm not saying mine are perfect at all, but they have the 'soft' eyes and face. bronte is from working stock and is quite small, benson was part show, part working so he was fairly big, i'm pretty sure sam is from working stock, he is quite small, but alot finer than bronte, and can he shift!!!!!?? (like a whippit!!)

I think there are too many being bred. Just look at the numbers that come through rescue.

I'm guessing the "racier" ones are more the field trial ones as they are after speed, not just stamina.

We have 4 springers, and they all look different. Do I care, no. Why? Because they can do the job that they were bred to do. I can take them out on a full days beating/shooting and they find me the game (Holly is of course retired so her job is to lie in front of the fire lol).

Surely this means that it's a good pedigree. Someone buying a pup from a line that has got ftch, now they are going to get a good working dog. However, the flip side of this, is that the dog may be too good. Pippa, is from rytex lines and she is extremelly hot. I've made mistakes along the way but we are getting there and I can take her out on a shoot, and people comment on how good a worker she is and how pretty she looks. She is not your average springer. Firstly, she is quite small, at only 16 inches, secondly, she has quite small legs and a long body. However, you get her amongst some scent and she has no fear of cover. There are a lot of people out there that don't care what their dog looks like, they just want to have a good working dog. Is that wrong?

However, as I said, there are too many being bred and witihout any thought whatsoever. I think the nervous streak in them was brought in to make them more biddable. After getting Pippa, I read that her line is nervous and what I saw early on, I would say that was true. However, being fairly knowledgeable about dogs, I knew what I needed to do and socialised her. She is now very confident but was easy to train.

I think sometimes springers fall into the wrong hands. They need something to do. They don't need masses of exercise like some people think, they just need something to do and boundaries. People need to remember what they were bred for, before taking on these dogs.

I know this doesn't have a great deal to do with looks, but just my pet subject lol.

David Tomlinson of Shooting Times is always writing about the looks of springers. He has started up the BESS (Beautiful ESS) campaign. I can see where he is coming from but for me, I want a dog that will work for me.

Here is Pippa:



Rosie



and Tia



Can't put my hand on any pics of holly but out of the 4, she is the tallest.

Helen

i agree with you helen, springers dont need alot of physical exercise. i fell into the trap of giving mine lots of exercise walking them hours a day, then when i wanted to train them they were too knackered to concentrate!!!!

so now they get about 11/2-2 hours good physical off-lead exercise per day. sam gets about an hour per day training (not all at once). he also goes to training classes 3 times per week (no wonder he sleeps alot ). at weekends i try and take them for longer walks or somewhere different, but at the mo i take them to the same place as its the only place i can let sam off-lead (lead trailing). i'm just building up to take him somewhere else, but not just yet

ps. gorgeous pics by the way helen!!

Springers aren't my breed, but the queries Luke raises are also very relevant to the border collie.

I am not sure that the focus can be too strongly on the working side of the breed. If you want a working dog then the working ability is the most important factor. Looks don't even come into it. Regarding temperament, I remember Helen talking of all the dogs being bundled together in the back of the beaters van with lots of different people (including children) and lots of different dogs, and so I would say that the temperament of a working springer has to be very important. If a springer were to have a nasty streak with other dogs or people then it wouldn't be taken on shoots and wouldn't be bred from and therefore only the good tempered dogs would produce pups with, hopefully, their good temperament.

I do know what you are saying about looks though Luke, there are all varieties of ESS - it is the same with the border collie. I think with a working breed that is still fairly true to its roots though, this is going to continue to happen as working ability takes precedence over looks.

Whilst i get what people mean about a working breed, however they should still look like a springer.
And looks aside, looks is only a small part of it, what is the deal with this manic temperament so many seem to have nowdays?!?! I've met some that make Ralph look like an angel, but some truly seem insane..literally do not stop. I know springers are active, i understand this fully, but this goes beyond active..this is to the point where people who have them in a pet home, which IMO regardless of being naturally a working breed they should still be able to lead an active pet life, and they are just being drove to destruction with these maniacs that are supposed springers.
Its not doing the breed any favours, too many people i speak too-when you say you own a springer they give you a funny look and say something like "Rather you than me" yet they then meet Ralph and are usualy taken aback with how he acts.
Another thing, i really think not enough care is taken by breeders when placing pups in homes:?

Everybody that's owned Springers will be aware (we all have our stories) of how 'difficult' they can be.

People that dont know dogs might avoid certain breeds due to their size or their 'bad press' thinking they may be difficult but a Springer (for the uneducated) just appears to be a nice friendly dog of a convienient size.

Befeore you know it, BAM !!!, they've been 'Springered' !

I feel that's the reason so many end up in rescue - not bad breeding.

Whilst ina BIG part Phill i do agree, research is the key! I do feel breeders should take more of a care of where they are placing their pups, especially considering that they can be a handful in the wrong hands, well most breeds can really, but as you say-SPRINGERED!

Luke - you're correct in saying that breeders should "take more care" in where their dogs 'go', but at the end of the day people that 'want' a certain type of dog will always be able to convince the 'provider' that they're 'suitable' and 'able'.

The key is to make the 'buyer' aware of what they are going to be faced with.

Indeed, people seem overtook by the cute, fluffy, spottyness of the breed..with that happy face,the merry eyes and the ever wagging rump (regardless of the length of whats on the other end!) and they are all this, but they are also a dog that can work like no other..and has he speed and stamina of no other breed.
Again..research, breeders doing more than just producing the puppies and so forth.

.......and dare I say it.......a dog that will love you like no other !!