When does a crossbreed become a breed? Discussions

OK, I personally am not against anyone who wishes to create a new breed as long as they do all the relevant health tests and actually have some sort of 'aim'. Also I don't want this thread to become a I don't agree with this cross but this cross is OK nor about breeding for money as I think most (if not all) of us don't agree with that.
So at what stage does a crossbreed become a breed? Should you only start creating a new breed if you have written, up front, some sort of breed standard i.e. an aim, after all you must know what it is you are looking for from the start surely?
And at what point will a crossbreed become 'acceptable' by people as a breed?
Becky

Simply put, it's when a new breed consistently breeds true to the agreed standard as far as I know.

Which could be seen as a bit vague, I suppose. depends how specific the standard is. Now I'm confused.:?

I have often wondered this to, will be interesting to read the replies.

I think you've summed it up well There is a lot more behind it but as you say above is the main thing.
I was gobsmacked when I found out border collies were only recognised in the 1970's when you see painting etc, with them on going much further back.
Alot of old breeds ie, the akita have had other breeds bred into them like the chow and there are many others.

It's an interesting post and subject.

That is KC recognition though :? Collies have been registered with the ISDS (International Sheep Dog Society) since 1906 and in fact the first sheep dog trial was held in 1873, so working collies have been around a long time

Quite agree. As the poster reffered to the breed and breed standard I assumed she meant the KC which are the main area people look at for recognised breeds and breed standards in all breeds (or those that are recognised)
I still find it amazing though that the KC took so long to recognise border collies. I do realise looking back though that at the time it was all quite political regards the border collies between the ISDS and KC And the argument still goes on with BCs and other breeds

It certainly does. I have very mixed feelings on the topic but that would be going away from the original thread.

Start a thread on it Moobli. I profess to knowing very little regards this subject but would be fascinated to learn more. as you work your dogs so can see both sides.

My immediate answer to the original question - when does a cross breed become a breed - is that they become a 'breed' when there are thousands upon thousands in circulation...the same as pedigrees.
All breeds originate from crossing and mixing breeds.

So a Labradoodles a breed then based on that statement?
Becky

I would imagine that distinct bloodlines are more important than overall numbers.To establish a breed there is a minimum number of distinct lines but the lineage must be built on a population of dogs of the same type. Of course, different institutions might have different ideas of degrees of consanguinity and what constitutes a distinct bloodline.

Be patient with me on this one......

Skye is a Deerhound (dad) crossed with an Old English Sheepdog (mum).

Call him what you you want but to be exact he's (albiet an acident) what you would call a "1st Cross" In other words, the offspring of 2 pure pedigree dogs.

A "cross breed" can be the offspring of (for example) a Deerhound (dad) and a Spaniel x Lab (mum) In other words a cross breed but not a 1st cross.

When does a cross breed become a breed is a tough one. I guess at the end of the day you're only talking about a bit of paper.

I've seen Skye's brothers and sisters (1st Cross Deerhound x Old English Sheepdog) and they differ so much. Although they are all black and white OESD markings, Skye is the only tall skinny (deerhound like) one in the family.

If (everybody) decided that Skye was 'the desired type' and wanted to produce him over and over then I guess it would be a case of crossing OESD with Deerhounds, selcting the Skye 'type' ones very carefully from each litter and breeding those.

It's no different to how any of today's pedigree dogs came about.

At some point down the line 'recognition' would come in the form of a bit of paper.

I have a feeling Labradoodles will become a breed yes.

This is the best question i have heard from u lol, or any 1 on here lol, no serious i have funny enough thought about this myself, but never bother looking into it, very good question

i never knew akitas had chows in their blood? also i will test u on the history lol, why is there the american type akita, and what was it bred for? i have my own idea but just wondered what you thought?

the way i look at a dog breed is if it is crossed between to purebred dogs, its a cross, but any more its a mutt/mongrel

i have a spaniel (springer) x border collie

her dad is full springer - her mum is springerx collie

if i was to put millies (which btw i have no intention of doing - shes getting spayed!!!!!!) to a full border collie... would that mean i have a spanollie (is that what they are called??)


the easier way of doing that would be a male collie and female springer right??

They're called sprollies! If you put her to a collie then technically they are 50% springer and 50% collie because Millie is currently 75% springer and 25% collie.
However, in reality they aren't a breed at all and shouldn't have a name other than crossbreed.
Becky

I was sat in the 'local' tonight with a pal looking at the local paper.

I saw Springers (Local and pretty good) for £300

On the same page there were black labs of a similar 'quality' for the same price.

What stuck out (and made me reply to this thread) were Labradoodles priced at £900.

If selective breeding between Labs and Springers result in 'quality' Labradoodles' which in turn are bred with other 'quality' Labradoodles' to create 'better' Labradoodles then I can see the logic but these were a 'first ever' cross litter so I question why they are for sale for a higher price than the already proven Lab or Springer.

Interesting topic! To me, a breed would become a breed when all puppies bred breed true to whatever standard is drawn up for a certain number of generations WITHOUT having to resort to any input other than the crosses themselves. i.e. No first crosses - no crossbreed to first cross, etc. I would say you'd have to have at least 10 generations of crosses breeding true to type before you could even think about calling them a breed.

Labradoodles, for instance, are nowhere near becoming a breed as most of the puppies produced are still first crosses from Labs and Poodles.

Debs

(Who has a thing about calling crossbreeds anything other than a crossbreed!)