What to feed my Leo pup Diet

Hi Leo

My post wasnt intended to insult you, or offend you for that matter, but at the end of the day, I stick to my reply. It is not a good thing to keep a giant breed on puppy food for so long. You are new to the breed so cannot be expected to know it all can you???......I certainly dont as I still regard myself as an apprentice after 12 years and know many other that have owned the breed for many decades that do also.
While diet is a very important factor in a puppies first 18 months, there are alot of other things to take into consideration which will influence puppies outcome.

Your Post stated that if you feed puppy food till 18 or 22 months they will grow to be as big as your dog.
Sorry but im not getting into "My dog is bigger than your dog debate" .....But hes not that large either about average I would say, Ones of my boys is at least 10inchs taller!!!
On the subject of breeding,
It makes sense to buy a bitch first, because there is no such thing as a perfect dog/bitch. Leo. Let it grow, stand back and take a good look at her. THEN... you look for a stud dog to compliment her ( strong in the areas, where your bitch is weak)
So Leo let me ask you this, WHY are you doing it the other way round???? it makes no sense at all.

Hi Leopride
Thanks for your post it was very informative and well done today at the show.

i got toby first as a pet then i lost my old boxer so we decied to get another leo so along came holly.
i didn't get either of them purely to breed from i got them as pets nothing more, if we do eventually breed providing hols results are ok then what difference does it make to which dogs is the eldest providing they complement each others weaknesses and the lines don't clash which they don't. i can't see what this has to do with the thread but alot of breeders own dogs then get a bitch from another line and when that bitch has passed the health tests etc for breeding them allow them to mate.
at the time of purchasing the bitch as a pup the breeder will not know if her dog will complement the bitches faults as its a case of what and see what she turns out to be as an adult.

at the time of purchasing the bitch as a pup the breeder will not know if her dog will complement the bitches faults as its a case of what and see what she turns out to be as an adult.

Personally if I were to breed my bitch, I would wait to see what she was like, where her faults were, if any, and THEN look for a stud to compliment her.

got the breed of dog because i liked the size of them (giant) and yes if you look around there isn't many as big as toby but i simply put that down to the fact we always provided him with the nutrients he needed to grow regardless of the phase he was at relating to his age.
I think that statement you made suggests that if we all did what you do we would all have big dogs? No one's insulting your 'intelligents'

Which takes us back to the food issue. Large breed dogs like leos should not stay on puppy food for two years

i dont know how i can make it any clearer, i have not bred from either of my dogs.
even though i have 1 of each there is nothing stopping us from picking a stud for hol if we decied to do that instead of toby being the sire it doesn't mean that breeders do not introuduce new lines to their breeding stock without the knowledge before choosing a pup.

if people choose to read the post in that way i can't do anything about it. in it states i think ( not that it is a fact)

as long as people are happy with the diet they give their dogs or have as the case may be what differents does it make if we feed them on different diets or for length of time.

i do not come on this board to fall out but just because your point of view relating to diet is different than mine and the fact you have owned leo's for longer than me doesn't mean any one is right or wrong.:?
i do how ever feel you know each other and just trying to degrade me as a leo owner both my dogs are happy and healthy and thats all that counts to me.

''as long as people are happy with the diet they give their dogs or have as the case may be what differents does it make if we feed them on different diets''.

I am quite happy to let people feed their dog what ever food they think is right, whether it be tinned, complete or raw. ''or for length of time''. thats the bit I think we fell out on? Obviously I am wasting my time, so without further ado I will leave you to it

P.S. No one is trying to degrade you, don't know what your'e trying that one on for

regardless of length of time re diet my dogs have beem fed till adult age and theres nothing i can do to change it now, it hasn't done them any harm even if you dont agree.
you are both sitting reading my posts then trying to make out 1 i am misleading people or giving the wrong advice
2 that i am stating things which i haven't
3 re breeding i have gone about it all wrong and why did i get tob 1st? i dont have to justify my choices or infact answer the questions but i have.
i just get the feeling you are both trying to degade the posts i write re leo's as if i don't know any thing about the breed of dogs i have.

i didn't start all this i only answered the thread to the best of my knowledge relating to honey the fact you disagree with me and made me look a fool is why i posted.

the whole idea is to help not to try and degrade another members point of view.

Ok, I thought I wouldn't come back to this but I have

Originally Pxxuk asked where to find large breed puppy food. (page 5) You replied and then advised to keep it on puppy food till 18 -22 months.
Pxxuk then queried this.
You then said 6 months was way too young.
Thats where I came in and nothing I said in that post degraded or insulted you.
This question about puppy food and age was asked on another forum and everybody agreed 4 - 6 months for leos'.
Then Dudley came on and agreed with me.
Thats when you decided to find the posts offensive. Why? because we disagreed with you? Because we are new and not allowed to voice our opinions? I am passionate about this and I do, hand on heart, believe you are wrong on this one.
And please don't try and make out we are bullies because we're not, your'e the one making all the accusations and now I feel bullied by you so I'm not apologising.

Pxxuk, please do whatever you feel is right for your pup, whether you choose 6 months or 18 months, that is up to you, but do use the computer to find out more ;-)

That’s on another forum and that’s their opinion as this is yours. Was it you that said this on the other forum and everyone followed you in your decision?
Well on this site you’ll find members that will disagree with you and not follow the line of the majority if they feel that you are wrong as I do in this I still stand by what I said.

She would since she is your friend and no surprise to me.

You can voice your opinion as I have done mine this is what these type of forums are for.

I believe that you are wrong so we’ll have to agree to disagree one this one

Ok The 'other' forum wasn't agreeing with me, I hadn't asked the question. This was on a global leonberger forum.
If you want to ask the same question to other leonberger owners feel free to do so, I don't know them all. Ask the leonberger club, ask the president of that club, ask some foreign 'big dog' breeders see what they say.

So because another leonberger owner - of 12 years I believe - agrees with me then she has to be my friend?
Getting paranoid are we?

Glad you agree that we can voice our own opinions, which is exactly what I have done and I believe it was weeks ago when I last posted on this, you brought it up again.

I came on because I know you were wrong with the advice. I never pointed you out specifically, you have chosen to take this personal, you started it. I'm not going to apologise and I will still state 6 months not 18 months over and over again.
It seems to me you want to make me/us out to be the bad guys - whatever

Hi pxxuk,

I have followed this thread and maybe shouldn't comment but would like to say that it has been my understanding that larger breeds should not be on a high protein diet for too long to avoid unneccesary damage to joints.

That is just my understanding and I know that if I did own a large breed like a leo or newf etc. I don't think I would wait until 18ms to change. I think the best thing for you to do Pxxuk would be to research this further and make a decision based on your research so that you are happy!

The problem when asking for advice sometimes is you will get many different answers and so you end up more confused than ever! So if I were you I would perhaps do so more research and then make the decision that you feel happy with.

Good Luck pxxuk - your pup looks so scrummy!

Well this is my first post on Dogsey and what an interesting first post to come across.
Although I have border Collies (no large breeds) I have worked, shown and trained with larger breeds such as the leonberger and other larger breeds.
I have read through this post thoroughly and felt I had to comment. I agree with Leospride in what she has said as the general concensus from larger breed owners and breeders deems to be to come off puppy food early. Vets advice is all well and good if they are aware of larger breeds and their needs. Food companies too are good and bad and their feeding instructions should be taken with caution.
I am concerned that "Leo" feels got at because I do not see that this is the case. Yes Leo you fed as you were advised by your breeder and to no ill effects (lovely dogs by the way) but it's like saying "Don't feed your dogs chocolate" Some dogs react and some don't. However the general strong opinion of dog owners/breeders is Don't give dogs chocolate. A different line I know, but what I am suggesting is Leo's dogs are fine and good hips. That is a great result, however there would be other dogs out there with hip problems because of lengthy periods of puppy food and high protein. So why take the chance.
PXXUK asked an interesting question and my advice would be to her to listen to what leospride is saying but also to go to a show and speak to large breed owners to get a general view of diet. I think you will find that it corresponds with what Leospride says.

Thank you all for your advice. I have consulted the vet who told me to, as you say, do I as feel necessary. I had to change Honey's food over to Wafcol and I will be following their guide to the letter... as I dont intend to show her (she's not a pedigree anyway so I dont think I could) I am not too bothered with the cosmetics so to speak although I am obviously not wanting to do anything detrimental to her health in later years. She is loved and will continue to be as she is.

Leo I am sorry you feel the way you feel and I know it is easy to feel like you are being "got at" in the text. Please dont be disheartened, as it has been said already, different people give different advice and ultimately you will always get different opinions. We all have happy and healthy dogs and yet have fed them differently... may they continue to be happy and healthy

PS I will always welcome photos of other peoples Leos or dogs for that matter... its nice to see what she will eventually look like, or get an idea

PPS Please can we now agree to disagree and make up?? After all we have the same end goal - to have and keep our healthy dogs?!?!

Hi PXXUK. Good luck with your little pup by the way. Looks lovely. Can I just add a comment. It seems that your vet is not knowledgable regarding large breeds, which is fine, no vet knows everything. But not to give you an answer or admit they don't know and then not to put you in contact with a vet that does is lacking in my book. I would be disappointed if I had that response from my vet.
Secondly, high protein diets as in particular puppy food applies to all breeds. In your case we are dealing with a large breed. I have border collies, a medium sized dog, however in general puppy food is changed around six months onto a junior line which you then can use upto 15 months or there abouts. A pup does need a good diet to grow however too much of a good thing can have dire affects.
I know of someone who came to my training who gave their pup extra calcium supplements as she had been told it would make the bone bigger and therefore a bigger dog.
By the time the dog was 15 months old it was crippled by having too much calcium in it's diet. He had to be put down.
Remember that diet is important but breeding is a large part too. If you have a badly bred dog no amount of the correct diet will put it right. The opposite can be true though in having a lovely healthy pup and giving it the incorrect diet and ruining the dog physically with dire affects.
Most dogs do not finish growing physically until they are two years old. However time does vary breed to breed on what time you stop giving the extra input and change to a lower proteined yet balanced diet. No breed I know of would feed a puppy food until they were two. Please be careful and speak to the breed club with people who have been in the breed for many years. I seem to read that your pup is a cross. Apologies if I'm wrong. The other breed in the mating should also be considered as various breeds can suffer with various dietry and health problems. So both sides of the breeding should be looked at. I know of Dudley who replied to you earlier and she is very respected in the breed for her dogs and views. I would suggest that you speak to her perhaps further.
All the best.

fine i am wrong in your point of view but i simply don't share it.
i may have been given the wrong advice when i got toby by the breeder but it doesn't change the fact i have fed him as i was told and he is fine.
to try and change my mind relating to the diet of a leo to your way of thinking is not going to happen.
i have always said do what you feel is best relating to honeys food.
if my advice is no good relating to anything about leos i won't bother, even though i live with the breed 24/7.
no 1 person knows everything about the breed they own and even if you don't agree with my advice on any subject doesn't mean to say i am giving the wrong advice on any topic.

Megan,

Welcome to Dogsy Thank you for the compliments. Without wishing to sound rude or dismissive, I dont quite know where this bit about my vet not being knowledgable about the breed has come from and she was in fact quite helpful with what she did advise me, which is basically what you have just said; puppy food then junior food then adult food etc so the correct amount of nutrients are given at the correct times of her life... which is what I will be following. She also pointed out that a few years ago we didnt actually have any of it which should also be considered but I guess thinking about it you could look at it as a money making ploy by all the companies out there OR just that research has proved the need is there, either way... things are quite different now for pups these days. I would never ever give my dogs extra supplements unless on the advice of a vet in any case, I would hate to cause an illness!

As for the cross breed part, we dont actually know what dad was so it is very difficult - we believe he was a Husky looking at all the puppies together (most of the boys were extremely Husky like!) but mum was a bit of a minx and hasn't told us! We are assuming he was of the large/giant variety because of mum's size... had to be fairly large to get up there, ahem

Look forward to seeing more posts from you around here and once again, welcome

Leo, please... I asked for advice, not for a decision to be made by you or anyone else for that matter. It is simply just a difference of opinion thats all... please dont stop giving your advice or comments because that would be silly! ALL advice is considered and greatly received! :smt058

whats the point of giving advice to be shot down......
its nothing to do with the fact your new, its the fact you are making out i'm wrong because your view is different to mine, its some thing we won't agree on any time soon.
i would never do anything to my dogs or advice others knowingly the info is wrong what ever the subject.
i only adviced what i was told and what i have done knowing it hasn't harmed mine.
if i fed tob so much protien for the period i did and its not good for them how do you explain the fact his scores are ok for stud?
i give up i have alot going on at the mo and this isn't helping.
enjoy the thread cause i wont be back!

just for some info
LARGE BREED PUPPY FOOD

How important is it to feed "size-specific" dog food? Here is what I have found...
One of the first major dog food companies to come out with LARGE BREED puppy food stated that there were reduced levels of calcium and phosphorus among other ingredient changes. They claimed that rapidly growing breeds would benefit from "slightly" reduced levels of various ingredients.
The interesting thing is that if you look at the recommended amounts they tell you to feed when comparing their Regular Puppy Food with the new Large Breed Puppy Food, you would see that the recommended amount to feed was slightly MORE for the Large Breed Puppy Food! So where is the effect of the dog getting "slightly " reduced amounts of calcium and phosphorus if the dog should eat a greater amount of the Large Breed Puppy Food compared to the Regular Puppy Food?
So I called the company and asked about this. Their reply was that there really is "very little difference" between the Regular Puppy Food and their new Large Breed Puppy Food. I asked "So why bother to market all these foods and make the retailer stock all these varieties when there are already thousands of types of pet foods already on the shelves? Won't this confuse the pet owner even more?"
Their response was that consumers perceive a certain need for their pets...pet food companies have to respond to that perceived need or the company will fall behind the competition. Most well known manufacturers produce good products based upon nutrition research; and much of the impulse to do the research is driven by pet food consumers who demand high quality, breed specific products. Pet food manufacturers know how to make top quality foods and by necessity, the higher quality products will cost more because quality ingredients are simply more expensive than poor quality ingredients.
Is it possible that some companies will just slightly tweak the ingredients so that they can then label the product "NEW" or "IMPROVED"? Will the consumer think a new product must be better than the "old product". For example, the Iams Company (one of the best of all the pet food manufacturers) makes...
SMALL BREED FORMULA PUPPY FOOD...for dogs reaching 20 pounds or less as adult.
MEDIUM BREED FORMULA...for dogs reaching 20 to 65 pounds as adult.
LARGE BREED FORMULA...for dogs reaching over 65 pounds as adult.
If you looked at the ingredients list for these three foods you would notice that the first four ingredients are exactly the same and in the same order of percent of the total. It isn't until the fifth ingredient that there is a slight tweak to the ingredients to make each product very slightly different from the others. Iams is a great pet food company but the multitude of minutely different products being put on the feed store shelves is often overwhelming and confusing to many pet owners.
So...is it necessary to feed size-specific (manufacturers like to use the term "breed specific") pet food to growing puppies? Maybe not, but there are enough pet food consumers who will demand a food specifically targeting their breed of dog and that is what drives the pet food market. There are some concepts, though, you really MUST keep in mind, especially with large breeds of dogs. Please note the following...

* The notion that over nutrition in rapidly growing large breeds of dogs causes skeletal and other growth defects may not be true. It depends on what you mean by OVER NUTRITION! There has been some suggestions that high protein and fat diets contribute to "over nutrition" and cause problems...so some breeders and veterinarians resorted to actually suggesting that rapidly growing breeds be fed a poor quality food with lots of grains (carbohydrates) and low protein and fat. The (erroneous) theory was that this diet would under nourish the dog and thereby slow the growth rate. The dog would grow more slowly but eventually attain its normal stature at a later stage of life and it wouldn't acquire those nasty skeletal defects. Unfortunately this theory benefited no one... especially the poor dogs.
* If over nutrition means the dog is ingesting too many calories for its energy demands and is overweight, then there will be a much higher chance for skeletal problems. Newer research is showing that it isn't the protein or fat levels in a well balanced diet that causes problems but rather the excess weight a pup may be carrying while growing that is the real culprit.

Some of the environmental aspects that can affect the observable expression of hip dysplasia are the following:

1. Nutrition - There are reports that in puppies a restricted calorie intake could restricted the growth rate, and in turn will lessen the potential for the dog to develop hip dysplasia. (I wouldn't suggest doing this to any pup... it makes as much sense as stealing money from your own checking account!) The problem is that some restricted diets restrict the fat and protein content and increase the carbohydrate content of the food. Bad! See a better way in the discussion in ThePetCenter.com here. The real goal should be to keep growing pups from becoming OVERWEIGHT. Restricting fat and protein in a growing pup can be a disaster. A high quality, meat-based diet is absolutely necessary for growing pups, just don't feed so much of it that the pup becomes overweight.

2. Physical Activity - In a young, growing dog with a genotype (genetic makeup) for CHD who will eventually develop some trouble because of it, will develop more arthritis and have more eventual difficulty if it is highly active physically. Climbing stairs, jumping into and out of pick-up trucks, running with other normal dogs can all subject the growing hip structures to unwarranted stress and trauma and increase future discomfort for the dog. The effects of this excessive activity is worsened in an overweight pup. (In a normal, growing dog, all these activities will not cause hip dysplasia!)

3. Bedding - There is no scientific proof, but lots of observational conclusions, that pups reared especially during the nursing period on slippery surfaces such as newspapers will be prone to hip difficulties. That is not to say that smooth concrete, wood or newspaper surfaces cause dysplasia, just that they can make a bad situation worse. Better surfaces for newborn pups would be blankets or towels... something they can get a better grip on.


taken form this site
http://www.thepetcenter.com/xra/hd.html

FWIW, and not wishing to seem to be taking sides (as I don't personally know anyone who has posted on this thread), but the general consensus among owners/breeders of my particular giant breed it that puppy food should not be fed beyond 6 months of age.