Off-topic posts from breeders enquiry thread Controversial

Personally id think so very carefully and REALLY research the english bulldog, they have so many health problems! please please think very carefully before you take on ANY dog, but think hard if you can afford the vet bills?
And is showing the only reason you want a bulldog?

A WELL BRED BULLDOG SHOULDN'T HAVE ALOT OF HEALTH PROBLEMS HAYLEY .

I see many Staffs with health problems too Hayley! I must admit, in the last few years the Bulldogs we have boarded have been great! health and fit.
Dawn.

dawn there are so many staffords that have health problems sadly, but all depends on breeding

British Bulldogs are now criples of the canine world, its not the dogs fault one bit but the humans who breed them to the standard, the orignal bulldog look so different compared to kc show bulldogs you see today, same goes for the show staffords

But if anyone can say british bulldogs are healthy and are healthy when compared to the bulldogs of old, then hey show me the evidence....

Im sorry but i cannot condone the breeding of the british bulldog, they dont have a long life span, they have skin problems, breathing prob, cannot whelp properly. endless list of health problems

Sorry Hayley, I don't agree theres good and bad in all breeds - I've seen Bulldogs, yes the KC ones doing agility!

Then why do you olde tyme bulldogs nicci? why didnt u just pay 2000 pounds for an 'agile' british bulldog?

A little something written by someone on my forum
May be of intrest to some people?
BULLDOGS (old, modern and next generation)

The Early Bulldogs



The term "bulldog" was first used around 1500 and might have been applied to various ancestors of modern bulldog breeds. In the 1600s, bulldogs were used for bullbaiting, a wagering sport popular in the 17th century in which trained bulldogs leapt at a bull lashed to a post, latched onto its snout and attempted to suffocate it. It is adaptation to these rough origins that resulted in the bulldog's unusual look. Its short and slightly upward facing snout enables it to breathe while keeping hold of the bull, its wrinkles allowed blood to flow away from the dog's eyes and nose, and its thickly-muscled neck and light hind end helped to prevent the thrashing of the bull's head from breaking the dog's spine. This dog was of medium size; larger dogs were considered to be the result of mastiff crosses. A dog of great courage and agility was needed for bull baiting.



The practice of bullbaiting was banned in England in 1835. Laws were passed in England prohibiting bull baiting and the Olde English Bulldogges main purpose of existence vanished. Within a decade the numbers of bulldogs declined drastically almost to extinction.



The first show to have a class for bulldogs was in Birmingham. Just a few years later, in 1864, a club was organized to enhance the breed. Unfortunately, this group never picked a specific breed standard, and in 1891 the two top bulldogs, King Orry and Dockleaf, were greatly different in appearance. King Orry was reminiscent of the original bulldogs -- lighter boned and very athletic. Dockleaf was smaller and heavier set -- more like modern bulldogs. Dockleaf was declared the winner that year. Although some argued that the older version of the bulldog (known as the Old English Bulldog) was more fit to perform, the modern version’s looks won over the fans of the breed.
Dog show fanciers eventually decided to reconstruct the breed, but wanted to tone down the aggressive temperament of the original Olde English Bulldogge. They crossed the remnants of the existing stock with the pug and over the years that followed they developed the modern English Bulldog. Unfortunately though, this modern dog is wrought with all kinds of genetic health problems.



The breed standard is a very loose standard with no great detail like the mordern Bulldog, it went something like this:

Preferring a strong stocky muscled physic- height and weight should be in keeping with a symmetrical, well proportioned body.
The head is large, the upper region slightly convex from one side to the other; the forehead dominates the face. However it is still wider than high. The head is furrowed, with loose thick and wrinkled skin about the throat and side of head. Cheeks are prominent due to the strong development of the muscles. There is a broad, short, deep and strong muzzle with obvious folds, keeping it's length in comparison with that of the entire head. The nose is broad, with well open nostrils. The ears are set high and wide.
The body is compact, the chest wide and deep with ribs well sprung and well set down between the fore legs. The back is short, giving the impression of a well balanced dog. The neck is slightly arched, of moderate length, very muscular and almost equal to the circumference to the skull. The top line is solid with a broad and muscular back, withers well marked, broad loin, rather short and solid.
The shoulders are muscular and slightly sloping; forelegs straight, well boned and set well apart; elbows turned neither in or out; feet broad strong, toes tight, nails curved and strong, pads thick and tough.
The hindquarters are broad and muscular, with well developed second thigh denoting power, but not cumbersome; moderate angulations at hocks. The gait is powerful, heavy, with good drive from the hind quarters.
Height: 18-22 inches
Weight: 55-90 pounds



Modern Bulldog



The Modern Bulldog standard is alot more detailed for the show world and the dogs carry alot more health concerns.

Standard


General Appearance
Smooth-coated, thick set, rather low in stature, broad, powerful and compact. Head, fairly large in proportion to size but no point so much in excess of others as to destroy the general symmetry, or make the dog appear deformed, or interfere with its powers of motion. Face short, muzzle broad, blunt and inclined upwards. Dogs showing respiratory distress highly undesirable. Body short, well knit, limbs stout, well muscled and in hard condition with no tendency towards obesity. Hindquarters high and strong but somewhat lighter in comparison with heavy foreparts. Bitches not so grand or well developed as dogs.

Characteristics
Conveys impression of determination, strength and activity.

Temperament
Alert, bold, loyal, dependable, courageous, fierce in appearance, but possessed of affectionate nature.

Head and Skull
Skull large in circumference. Viewed from front appears very high from corner of lower jaw to apex of skull; also very broad and square. Cheeks well rounded and extended sideways beyond eyes. Viewed from side, head appears very high and short from back to point of nose. Forehead flat with skin upon and about head, loose and finely wrinkled, neither prominent nor overhanging face. Projections of frontal bones prominent, broad, square and high; deep, wide indentation between eyes. From stop, a furrow, both broad and deep extending to middle of skull being traceable to apex. Face from front of cheek bone to nose, short, skin wrinkled. Muzzle short, broad, turned upwards and very deep from corner of eye to corner of mouth. Nose and nostrils large, broad and black, under no circumstances liver colour, red or brown; top set back towards eyes. Distance from inner corner of eye (or from centre of stop between eyes) to extreme tip of nose not exceeding length from tip of nose to edge of underlip. Nostrils large wide and open, with well defined vertical straight line between. Flews (chops) thick, broad, pendant and very deep, hanging completely over lower jaws at sides, not in front, joining underlip in front and quite covering teeth. Jaws broad, massive and square, lower jaw projecting in front of upper and turning up. Nose roll must not interfere with the line of layback. Viewed from front, the various properties of the face must be equally balanced on either side of an imaginary line down centre.

Eyes
Seen from front, situated low down in skull, well away from ears. Eyes and stop in same straight line, at right angles to furrow. Wide apart, but outer corners within the outline of cheeks. Round in shape, of moderate size, neither sunken nor prominent, in colour very dark – almost black – showing no white when looking directly forward. Free from obvious eye problems.

Ears
Set high – i.e. front edge of each ear (as viewed from front) joins outline of skull at top corner of such outline, so as to place them as wide apart, as high and as far from eyes as possible. Small and thin. ’Rose ear‘ correct, i.e. folding inwards back, upper or front inner edge curving outwards and backwards, showing part of inside of burr.

Mouth
Jaws broad and square with six small front teeth between canines in an even row. Canines wide apart. Teeth large and strong, not seen when mouth closed. When viewed from front under jaw directly under upper jaw and parallel.

Neck
Moderate in length, very thick, deep and strong. Well arched at back, with much loose, thick and wrinkled skin about throat, forming dewlap on each side, from lower jaw to chest.

Forequarters
Shoulders broad, sloping and deep, very powerful and muscular giving appearance of being ’tacked on‘ body. Brisket capacious, round and very deep from top of shoulders to lowest part where it joins chest. Well let down between forelegs. Large in diameter, round behind forelegs (not flat-sided, ribs well rounded). Forelegs very stout and strong, well developed, set wide apart, thick, muscular and straight, presenting rather bowed outline, but bones of legs large and straight, not bandy nor curved and short in proportion to hindlegs, but not so short as to make back appear long, or detract from dog’s activity and so cripple him. Elbows low and standing well away from ribs. Pasterns short, straight and strong.

Body
Chest wide, laterally round, prominent and deep. Back short, strong, broad at shoulders, comparatively narrower at loins. Slight fall to back close behind shoulders (lowest part) whence spine should rise to loins (top higher than top of shoulder), curving again more suddenly to tail, forming arch (termed roach back) – a distinctive characteristic of breed. Body well ribbed up behind with belly tucked up and not pendulous.

Hindquarters
Legs large and muscular, longer in proportion than forelegs, so as to elevate loins. Hocks slightly bent, well let down; legs long and muscular from loins to hock; short, straight, strong lower part. Stifles round and turned slightly outwards away from body. Hocks thereby made to approach each other and hind feet to turn outwards.

Feet
Fore, straight and turning very slightly outward; of medium size and moderately round. Hind, round and compact. Toes compact and thick, well split up, making knuckles prominent and high.

Tail
Set on low, jutting out rather straight and then turning downwards. Round, smooth and devoid of fringe or coarse hair. Moderate in length – rather short than long – thick at root, tapering quickly to a fine point. Downward carriage (not having a decided upward curve at end) and never carried above back.

Gait/Movement
Peculiarly heavy and constrained, appearing to walk with short, quick steps on tips of toes, hind feet not lifted high, appearing to skim ground, running with one or other shoulder rather advanced. Soundness of movement of the utmost importance.

Coat
Fine texture, short, close and smooth (hard only from shortness and closeness, not wiry).

Colour
Whole or smut, (i.e. whole colour with black mask or muzzle). Only whole colours (which should be brilliant and pure of their sort) viz., brindles, reds with their various shades, fawns, fallows etc., white and pied (i.e. combination of white with any of the foregoing colours). Dudley, black and black with tan highly undesirable.

Size
Dogs: 25 kgs (55 lbs); bitches: 23 kgs (50 lbs).

Faults
Any departure from the foregoing points should be considered a fault and the seriousness with which the fault should be regarded should be in exact proportion to its degree and its effect upon the health and welfare of the dog.



Health concerns

Skin/Wrinkle Problems
Dermatitis/Pyoderma/Staph
Allergies
Acne
Demodectic Mange
Hot Spots
Interdigital Cysts
Interdigital Cysts
Tear Stains
Yeast Infections

Eye Problems
Entropion/Ectropion
Cherry Eye
Distichiasis
Dry Eye
Corneal Ulcer
Conjunctivitis

Heart Problems
Heart Murmur
Enlarged Heart
Valve Defects

Structural Problems
Hip Dysplasia
Luxating Patella
Hemivertebrae
Spina Bifida
Elbow Dysplasia
Arthritis/Joint Problems

Mouth/Jaw
Cleft Palate
Harelip

Rear/Tail Problems
Tight Tail
Inverted Tail
Impacted Anal Glands

Urinary/Reproductive
Urinary Tract Infections
Bladder Infection
Prolasped Urethra
Pyometra

Respiratory Problems
Stenotic Nares
Small Trachea
Hypoplastic Trachea
Elongated Soft Palate

Miscellaneous
Hypothyroidism
Bloat/Gastric Torsion
Cancer

*Note* These are not all breed specific.



The next generation of Bulldog

Over the last few decades there has been a number of breeders that have been trying to put the health and vigor back into the Bulldog that has bred out due to the current standard. These re-creations of the orginal Bulldog have had mixed success, some breeding programmes fairing better than others. Mainly due to the personal preference by each breeder, Some breeders have attempted to re-create the bulldog from the 1800's while others have attempted to re-create the bulldog from another era. Some of the more successful bulldogs are the olde english Bulldogge, Dorset olde tyme Bulldog, Victorian bulldog and the Aussie bulldog.






Comparison pics of Old and modern Bulldogs

Erm yes, and?

Whats that got to do with anything, I owned Bulldogs before, not all were unhealthy!

Lets not turn this into a 'lets slate bulldogs' thread. The OP wasnt asking for advice, they have more than likely summed everything up for themselves and decided to take the plunge, whats wrong with that?

im offering advice also, hence the info i have put up, it gives sky highest another side to it

What, your side? When you've never even owned one?

As I've said theres good and bad in every breed, it's not just Bulldogs belive it or not theres some excellent examples around right now.

there is some beautiful dorests, some amazing victoran bulldogs nicci, but please show me the 'excellent' examples of the english bulldog

I would Hayley belive me, but I'd hate to think I could get told off by someone for copyright infrindgement. I don't know why you always seem to single out Bulldogs Hayley, they are a wonderful breed which I admit to becomming quite dis illusioned with but I don't think the breed is bad. Try and check out some of the dogs bred by Lynn Manns she's bred some outstanding examples. Some of the Bulldogs she owns and has bred are what I personally feel are some of the very best Bulldogs around in the UK.

(To the mods, If I am not allowed to name names, please edit the post)

The OP was asking information on good breeders of the breed,not the 'downsides' to owning a Bulldog, so why only state them ?

Thats right, good breeders CARE about the breed, do their utmost best to produce healthy dogs theres so many good points to owning this breed that by far outwieghs the bad ones. Don't knock them until you've owned them - I had a bad experience with one I owned - But they were NOT all the same! And why don't own one now? Nothing could justify me spending that much money buying a dog again - but people do and will carry on paying it. If the cost come down instead of rocketing I would probably own another. I just have better things to spend £2000 on these days Thats nothing against the dogs of course - A breed that will always stay, very close to my heart.

anyone who breeds english bulldogs does not care about dogs full stop with a list of over 40 health problems with this breed there should be a ban on breeding them

If you can justife yourself by saying you a good dog lover by breeding the english bulldog then id like to see how you can ?

I know 3 'English Bulldogs' who have lived 'till old age with no problems at all...

And they did well in the show ring

Can't be ALL bad, don't tar every one with the same brush...

how old is old age? did they have no health problems? did they pant when walked around the ring once (be honest random) and was it agile and fit? (be honest again random)

and the worst of the worst do well in show rings random, dont tell me that because 'it did well in a show ring' that its the dog is better because showing does not show health, only it physical side

WOW thanks ALL for your comments! I have researched the breed for many years, as it's a breed I fell in love with at a very young age, but untill know couldn't spend that type of money on! my aunte owned one that lived to 12! with no health prob's! came from self welping lines, and also did well at show. So there are breeders out there who care about the breed! not evreybody is in it for the money! and while I'm at it not all staffs are problem free! they too have there share of health problems! but that doesn't meen that we should ban the breeding of them! maybe due to the high numbers in rescue around the country a restriction on breeding should be made?.....

now please don't jump on me (oh err!!) lol but I'm just makeing a point. There are points for and against all breeds if you look! it is upto the indervidual to make an informed choice, which is what I'm trying to do. I was just looking for a little help with finding a good breeder as a starting point for my search!

Once again thankyou to everyone who has made comment.

Sky Highest why did u get an irish stafford?
I agree SHOW staffords tend to have health problems, if you go for the orignal type stafford then the health problems tend NOT to be there! l2 only came about because of show breeders!

PLEASE PLEASE sky highest, im not getting at you and please forgot whats going on in the thread but look at the health problems english bulldogs suffer, could you cope with all this, its not just money and the physical time you would spend treating these problems, but the heart break of seeing a dog you would love dearly go through this

Im honestly saying this with care and if you think you can do this then my hat is off to you
Your Saffie looks well loved so im sure any dog in you care would be!
IM not just saying all this to be mean, but i generally care about the how bad the bulldog is!

The health problems britsh bulldog can suffer
Skin/Wrinkle Problems
Dermatitis/Pyoderma/Staph
Allergies
Acne
Demodectic Mange
Hot Spots
Interdigital Cysts
Interdigital Cysts
Tear Stains
Yeast Infections

Eye Problems
Entropion/Ectropion
Cherry Eye
Distichiasis
Dry Eye
Corneal Ulcer
Conjunctivitis

Heart Problems
Heart Murmur
Enlarged Heart
Valve Defects

Structural Problems
Hip Dysplasia
Luxating Patella
Hemivertebrae
Spina Bifida
Elbow Dysplasia
Arthritis/Joint Problems

Mouth/Jaw
Cleft Palate
Harelip

Rear/Tail Problems
Tight Tail
Inverted Tail
Impacted Anal Glands

Urinary/Reproductive
Urinary Tract Infections
Bladder Infection
Prolasped Urethra
Pyometra

Respiratory Problems
Stenotic Nares
Small Trachea
Hypoplastic Trachea
Elongated Soft Palate

Miscellaneous
Hypothyroidism
Bloat/Gastric Torsion
Cancer

Most of the 'illness's' that are listed there CAN HAPPEN with any breed including Boxers, Shar -pei's and many of the mastiff breeds or any breed produced to have excess wrinkle.

Just thought I should point that out