Utonagans and Northern Inuits ????? Purpose ! Discussions

I think Tuuli, you have a lot more faith in the show system than I! The standards are written, in most cases, by show people who have little experience of working dogs, or expertise in anatomy. For this reason there is a distinct difference in show and working type in many breeds.

For instance, most breed standards, regardless of type or origins, call for 'good' angualtion without giving actual measurements and the usual interpretation of this in the show world is that 'if a little is good, more must be better' and so we have developed over-angulation in breeds that have no particular reason for it other than to look flashy in the showring.

I do believe that Siberians have changed considerably from the original type and there are different types to suit various disciplines like sprint racing and show type.

Another point that perhaps Tuuli you could help me with. I see the phrase 'muscular withers' in some of the FCI standards. The CSW was recently written about here and I see it is in theirs. This to me is surely a mistake....withers can't be muscular. Is it possibly a mistranslation?

Being only a NI owner I know nothing about the breeding, health or ethics of breeding, and the politics of these dogs but only about My NI and the reasons behind me wanting one and a bit about my gorgeous boy.

I saw a NI around 5 years ago in a local rescue centre and fell in love with the look of the dog. After going on and on about NI's my late husband and my sister decided to buy me one for my birthday. They turned up with this gorgeous little bundle of 12 weeks old. I was totally smitten. He isnt the standard NI as he has the patchy coat.

We named this bundle Trouble and he lives upto his name daily. Trouble is now 4 1/2 yrs old and has been a real treat to live with. He is mad, destructive, loving, funny, loyal, did i mention mad? His training has not been easy (in comparison to the rotties, gsd's and mutts I've had) but has definitely been a learning curve for me. He is dominant, has high prey drive, daft, did I mention loving, funny and sweet?

He is a healthy, happy boy who I adore. I cant imagine how my life would be without him. He has only ever seen a vet for the most basic things, has no hip problems or illnesses.

I wouldnt have any of this without Trouble so whoever decided to breed these dogs has done me a huge favour. I dont care much about what went into breeding him. I just enjoy him and take care of him to the best of my ability. He has given me so much more than I could give him.

I dont really have much to do with the NI Society apart from filling in the health questionnaires they send so that they can pinpoint any problems within a line.

Would I have another NI? Oh Yes. I dont care what went into the breeding so long as the health is good.

Utonagans wouldnt be in my list of choices though. Not because of the way they look but only because of the health problems that are showing up in certain lines. Maybe a few generations further along depending on health, I may consider them.

All breeds started somewhere and probably hit a few snags along the way regarding health but where would any of us be if they had given up at the first few hurdles?

This is only my opinion as a proud NI owner.

I dont beleive I asked ANY questions

I have no interest in Utonagon's or Northern Inuits..

Original lines of Malamutes: Chinook, Kotzebue, Mloots
Arthur Walden, Eva & Milton Seeley (owned and bred the first ever registered malamute "Gripp of Yukon" and first ever champion in America of course)
Paul Voelker had the Mloots strain

When they came to this country in 1959. It was three Malamutes from America, one dog - Pawnee Flash of North Wind and two bitches - Preston's Cheechako and her daughter Ambara's Nuviya.

Gripp of Yukon (male Ch)
Ooloo M'loot (female Ch)


Can I ask.. WHY in the US??

I don't live in the US

No problem with that what so ever

Mini, the purpose of the N.I.D at this point in time should be considered as less of a reason for existence than that of a Pekingese (that you use for your example) for why?

The N.I.D / Ute were breed for looks as well as a northern 'type' dog that could adapt more easy into todays environment. More suitable as a companion and pet than it's northern ancestors. They have been continued to be bred because of the proven temperament and stability of the dogs. The temperament for me has been the success of these breeds. It has been said many times that alot of us appreciate the Husky and Malamute etc but do not feel it fair to bring dogs of those characters into our lives because the character does not fit some circumstances...without land of your own, unless you are working these dogs very regularly I would feel mean owning one. The N.I.D although not an easy breed by any means more readily suits modern day living as they can be let off lead and do not share some of the traits that can make owning northern breeds not a viable option for some. The N.I.D were bred for it's wolfish looks, sound non aggressive temperament favouring it very well indeed as a dog that fits right into modern day society, health and companionship, that is everything I want in a dog.

Mini, the Staffie was just discussed to great lengths as you know, regarding the need to breed out any dog aggression in the breed to make it suitable for today's environment. You yourself said the fact that the Staffie was intended for dog fighting in it's origins plays a very small part of what the Staffie is as an enterty. How is it so that the origins of a breed on one hand can play a very small part of that dog and on another hand mean everything?

The fact that people are now taking historic breeds and having to either dilute the character to suit modern living and the way we have come to expect our dogs to fit in our lives surely means that the Northern Inuit Dog and Utonagan most certainly do have a purpose. they are for those of us who do not want to change the traits of ancient breeds and think they should stay exactly as they are and see the potential that these two new breeds have to offer.

In my opinion there are far to many great dogs all breed for purpose's that are no longer being utilized in anyway all sitting in homes frustrated out their minds because they arn't doing the job they are bred to do.

Whatever the reason behind a breed they were all 'designed' by man to fulfill some need or another in his life whatever the reason. The reason behind the NI / Ute is no less of a reason to me than any other breed of dog.

Needless to say they would also be more than capable of 'jobs'. they've got 4 legs and a brain and arn't made of jelly...lol

Looks arn't the sole reason (see above) I agree that there is still some variation of course. But there most definitely is a type. If you didn't know my dogs and I showed a picture most would comfortably say NI. We don't need to rush things, let them develop. Although 18 or so yrs in of course there is still going to be some variation...I can wait for 100% consistency and would rather health was of upmost importance than looks, so I wouldn't want to see people hell bent on only achieving 100% of the look yet, it is to early.

Totally agree. The web presence at this point in time is poor. However I do believe the societies are always so busy doing shows and events where people can go to find out more in person which is probably one reason why the web presence hasn't been taken care of as it should. Hopefully we will see some professional and informative sites up soon, as an owner I am looking forward to seeing that myself

How would I go about finding out more?...well at the time I first began to be interested there was indeed a site with information which later expired and has been a project ever since...That was my first port of call we then rang around as many breeders we could to talk with them and get a feel of breeders and the dogs themselves.

There is the Northern Inuit Dog yahoo group where people can go to find out about the many events they hold and they could directly meet with 100's of dogs and owners and many breeders at any of these events that are held up and down the country. The NI society hold many shows of their own and also take part in events like ummm 'our dogs' or something I think it is called?? (the one that's down in brentwood or someplace, sorry I can't remember!) Where lots of societies of different breeds can hold stalls and inform the public about their breeds...Or if they can't make an event just talk with other owners of the breed and any breeders that frequent the board. There is also a similar forum for the Utonagan's who hold similar events.

Hi mel...This should be a fairly easy answer but I myself don't know the exact timing as it happened before I got my first NI who is 3 next march. I have seen it written plenty of times but can't for the life of me remember

The website for the Northern Inuit Society should be up and running in a few weeks.

Well, actually the siberian standard WAS written originally by the pioneers of the breed in SHCA, and especially in the 1941 version they in fact tried to clarify the conformational variation by focusing on the working aspect. That standard held its place for 30 years! It has only gone through minor changes since then and mainly the additions were about making it more clear that heavy type is incorrect.

Is the Suomenlapinkoira standard written by show people too? :smt002

And you base this view on?

That is correct. I just dont approve making a working dog a show dog IF that means loss of motivation, temperament, drive and balanced conformation. Dual purpose is acceptable.

Is it really my job to clarify all standards? I understand muscular withers as wide, strong shoulder muscles that are attatched and meet at the top of the withers. The point itself cant be muscular like you said.

Sorry, my bad. I ment Malady of course!

That is the original country of the breed, isnt it?

I thought Chinook is a breed of dog. What about the Hinman dogs like Igloo & Lynx? And Husky-Pak?

Yes, some are written by people other than show goers. The fact that there are different types, and even within the show world, different types, indicates that some at least are moving away from the original construction. In some other breeds there is much greater variation between work and show types.

In Finland yes, I believe so. In the UK yes, 100%.

I belong to many genetics mailing lists where this often comes up for discussion. I'm sure you must be familiar with the writings of Jeffrey Bragg.

http://www.seppalasleddogs.com/what-are-seppalas.htm

No sorry, that was a bit off topic but thanks for answering

I think you may be mistaking the top of the scapulas for the withers. That would give a wide, but not muscular area. The area of the withers is formed by the spiny processes of the first few thoracic vertebrae which is more or less in the same place as the top of scapula. The actual withers can't be wide or muscular. I think maybe the writers of the standards have made the same mistake.

sorry janie, but i have to correct you there, the mal, sibe and gsd were not the only breeds used to create the N.I/Ute, there were others including an eskimo dog and 4 dogs imported from the USA, im not at liberty to reveal all yet as we are currently working with a well known publisher and hope to have our book published sometime in 2007, in it shall be the history and reasons behind creating them. Of course one of the original people is now deceased and has taken her secrets to the grave, but we are now delving into fusty old paperwork and hopefully all will be revealed.
I am also trying to work on the new website but find my days go nowhere lol, so it will be up and running asap.

No, it isnt. The latest standard was based on the working raindeer herding dogs that were found in Lapland during the 1970's.

Sure I know his writings. He was interviewed for the latest Finnish Sibe Club magazine and he says they would have no problems accepting sibes from, eg. Vargevass & Polar Speed lines into ISSSC. The scandinavian working line is very similar to SSS and as it SSS is not an official breed, one can only assume that some of the FCI Sibes do in fact meet the original standard and are not that different from the stock bred for the All Alaskan Sweepstake.

"The withers is the area atop the shoulder from where the neck ends to where the “true back” begins. In most dogs, the last cervical vertebrae and the first thoracic vertebrae are down between the shoulder blades, so you might not be able to feel them. The withers is thus a transition stage between the neck’s relatively upright carriage and the nearly level back called for in most working breeds. (I use the term “working” in the utilitarian sense, and especially the herding dogs.)"

From http://siriusdog.com/articles/anatomy-working-canine-dog-shoulder.htm

Hence, I think withers do mean muscular shoulders.

On the contrary - I know very little about them which is why I am asking! It is incredibly presumtuous to assume I was critising when I merely asked a couple of very simple questions. I happen to own Malamutes and thus my interest in these breeds is simply their Malamute heritage. I have no knowledge of the breeds apart from the Utonagan hip score average which has been published by the BVA (and only because I downloaded it for the Malamute one ) I am sad to say that it seems impossible to get straight answers to even the most simplest of questions :-(

Just what I was gonna say but you beat me to it! You probably worded it better than I would have anyway

For those asking about when the Utes split away from the NI I refer back to my first post on page 1:

The Northern Inuit started out way before the Utonagan, the Northern Inuits were created approximatly 18 - 20 years ago with the Utonagans being created by a group of people who broke away from the Northern Inuits & have only been around approximatly 8 years with their type not being as established as that of the NI.

So in short approximatly 8 years ago.

I think on the subject of new breeds many of us will just have to agree to disagree and I think it will always be that way.

Some of us think there was/is a need for them, some of us don't. Much as I love all dogs there are some dogs I just cannot see the point of at all and would never wish to own - I won't go into them as I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings who might have one and I certainly don't think they shouldn't be allowed to exist as they are dogs - and there are dogs that I feel have been ruined and so I would not want to own. That just makes me sad.

What is important in both new breeds and established breeds is breeding with health in mind, and I don't think any of us disagree on that one.

I couldnt agree more Minihaha So there's a book coming out which actually details the true breeds of dogs that were used to create these new breeds !

I agree the statement that they were bred as 'loyal pets' is a recent addition, as all the information available states they were bred to look like wolves.

Plus, as the creates should have already known, if you wanted a loyal pet, a Husky and a Malamute should not have been included, as they are pack dogs, not a one man, loyal creature and not for pets. I think that speaks for itself and proves they were bred for aesthetic reasons only.

Well, I won't ask any more questions as it seems everyone else who owns them has also been misinformed as they all seem to think the NI originated from 3 breeds and now that is not the case ?

I guess we'll all have to wait for the secret book to be released.

Yes, based on.

The point is Tuuli, that there are many show type Siberians, that are considered to be correct according to the standard, but are very different in construction from the original Seppala dogs. If you truly believe 'form follows function' there can be only one correct type for the original function.

It is a common misconception to think that the shoulder blades form the withers but that's not what Fred Lanting is saying in your quote above. If you read it again carefully you will see that he is assuming you know the withers to be part of the spine which is "atop the shoulder."

Have a look at these, they do explain it better.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Withers

http://www.shawlein.com/The_Standard/03_The_Middlepiece/The_Middlepiece.html

Or from Rachel Page Elliott's book - The New Dogsteps. Page 56

"Note that a line extending upward along the scapula ridge concurs with the apex of T-2 which is the second of the nine thoracic spines (spinous processes) that form the withers."

My apologies... this is what i understood to be true, from what i have read and heard from others..

at no time have we ever stated that there were only 3 breeds used, on all our websites it tells you about the origins, malady i hope your not inferring that im lying about the book as among N.I folk it is common knowledge, to tell the truth, i really dont care what you think about our breed, its here so get used to it, we wont go away and lie down quietly much as you would perhaps like us to, and people are never misinformed on buying puppies, we tell them the bad bits as well as the good. most peole i have ever met are enchanted with my dogs.
ps, apart from introducing yourself and slating N.I and Utes, you dont seem to be participating in any other threads