Utonagans and Northern Inuits ????? Purpose ! Discussions

Yes, exactly like saying you have to have a real purpose to a dog.

Having no snow is not a valid excuse, by the way. I use a rig all autum & spring. We dont have snow yet and I train my dogs every other day. ;-)

Azz, I didn't ask for the thread to be closed for any of those reasons, and if you re-read my post, it was because people were just arguing again, which is pointless and people inevitably get hurt.

Isn't that What I said ? :?

Tuuli, Thank you, for your lengthy and thorough post, very detailed :smt002

I didn't say they would inherit ALL of the bad traits, but with the possibility there, I don't personally think it would be a chance worth taking, especially as these dogs are to be 'Pets' :?

Why would working dogs not make good show dogs ? You only have to look at show results to see that. Show dogs that do well are praised as such because they are the best examples of the breed. Of my 3, I have one that can't be bothered with working and doesn't get on with showing, so he is our house pet and loves it, I have another that loves working but hopeless in the showring, and my third who adores showing and everything about it, but hates running, and would rather take a leisurely jog with me, so individuality plays a huge part for any breed.

I do in fact work my dogs and agree they should be not just pets (although one of mine is by choice), although I don't agree with your analogy that there was a "need" to create these dogs for Pets, which insinuates that of the thousands of breeds around the world, none of the 'Pet types' were good enough. This breed was created to be a wolf look-a-like, for those that love wolves, why can no-one be honest and admit it ? Also if that were the case, why are they worked at all ?

I love many, many breeds and don't have a problem with any breed in particular (including those already manmade), it's the people behind it that continually make excuses for their actions that are the problem and refuse to admit to the reasoning behind their actions :?

Maybe they should decide what the breed is for and what was the purpose, Working or Utility and stick by it.

Well I never said that.. I meant we don't use SLEDS as there is NO SNOW... we do however use rigs.. It was meant to be funny

I do have mals.. I have two.. one who had never seen a rig in her life until she came here and now LOVES to work.. the other isn't old enough and the 7 year old Samoyed finds it too much like boring work and will just stroll:smt002

So.. once the pup is old enough and once the rescue girl learns her lefts from her rights YES they will be on a rig.. together


So... your point is lost on me.. ;-)

There are a couple of questions I am curious about that I can't seem to find the answers for - I wonder if anyone on here can help?

1) What are Northern Inuits and Utonagans health tested for - is there a definative list anywhere? The 3 founding breeds are tested for the following (apologies if the GSD one is slightly out - they aren't my breed )

Malamutes: Tested for Hip Dysplasia and Hereditary Cataracts

Siberian Husky: Tested for Hip Dysplasia, Primary Glaucoma, Hereditary Catatacts, Corneal Dystrophy, Persistant Pupillary Membrane and the club recommends Thyroid testing.

GSD (according to the KC Accredited Breeders scheme): Compulsory - Tested for Hip Dysplasia: Recommended: Testing for Elbow grading, Eye testing, Haemophilia A testing for males.

So I am assuming that dogs created from crossing these three breeds are tested for all the above defects?

Also will the clubs be able to (and be willing to) give out the names of the dogs used to found the breeds? I can't seem to find this anywhere

Many thanks

Yes, of course it does but my honest opinion is that the breed standard (expecially the characteristics that are required for the dog to be able to work) should be more important in breeding these dogs. A malamute should be bred for working purpose. As should a sibe. If a mal or a sibe does not like to pull, it is not an individual that meets the standard nor should it be bred from. These are working breeds and without the will to work they are only a shadow of the breed. Would you breed your dogs as you told us that they cant be bothered with working?

What I'm trying to say, is that all the time a lot of breeds are being bred but only for pets or for shows. Look at show line sibes. Someone breeding huskies in South Africa or Florida for working? Dont think so. As long as this is done I dont see the point of ranting on about how bad is is to breed another breed of dog for being pretty and being a pet. Rather that than distroy the working breeds that should only be bred primarily for working. Be it a hobby or racing but the original purpose (and thus the original character) should be more important than looks. Form follows function.

Well, why didnt you get an Alaskan husky or a scandinavian hound if you wanted a working sled dog? Or a sibe? OR a Greenland Dog? Or an Old English Bulldog for weight pull? Because you like how malamutes look. It is just not fair to accuse others doing the exact same thing all dog lovers do all the time: being selfish and getting the one that appeals to them. I can honestly say I dont like Alaskan huskies or pointer crosses even when they are better sled dogs for sprint, I like sibes. I dont have any problem admitting I wanted a utonagan for an easy, wolfy pet as I dont yet have the place or the experience to get CsVs or true wolf dogs which I would perhaps rather have. But, again this is only my opinion. :smt001

I work mine because they like it. Luna actually loves it. I'm not sure what you think but I rather have an active dog that I can "use" for something than a sofa parasite. I already have one

No smilies there so you fooled me! Not the first time

I think the reason for the fact that no final health scheme has been set is, again, the reason that these breeds are still being developed. One needs to have KC recognition before any breed specific health requirements can be made. Still, like I always say, this has more to do with the breeder than the breed. Being a KC / FCI recocnised breed is no guarantee for a healthy dog without any hereditary diseases, HD/ED etc. This same problem arises in every single species of domesticated animal. Also it is a very wrong perception to think wild canids do not suffer from these faults. Nature is never perfect and human animal breeding does not come close to being nature.

I personally think it is crucial to health test any dog, tests depending on the type. Still, you always have people who dont care. In every breed. KC is not a God who sees it all and promises a new dog owner a happy life with a healthy dog. The moral responsibility is on the breeder, not on KC. And it is the responsibility of all of us to check our dogs, used for breeding or not. Owning a dog should not just be a priviledge, it should be a responsibility, towards the breeder, the siblings, the offspring and all individuals in that breed and in even larger scale towards all dogs. The more we know, the better. So I cant really see the point why you should attack the Ute/NI people for this. I know many of the breeders check their dogs thoroughly as there are those you dont. The buyer has the choice. As in every single other dog breed there is.

I have tested Elsa for HD/ED and will take both to be eye checked along with my junior huskies. And I will get Luna tested for HD/ED. I'm not planning to breed, I just want to know what's going on.

I just want to say that my Sam..(although used for working is a pastoral dog) therefore he is allowed to not like working.. And I had him entire for 7 years and he was NEVER bred from as he was bought as a pet, before I knew all about working etc.. My teenage bitch is spayed and the pup is longer coated therefore will be neutered around 18 months again he was bought as a pet..

SO regardless of performance on the working side.. my dogs will never be bred from anyway..

I think in this country if the only litters there were came from true proven working dogs there would be a lot less litters on the horizon.. Maybe THAT is a good idea:smt002

Actually, Jamaica have an excellent team of sled-dogs who competed at Aviemore this year :smt002

hehe! sounds a bit like Cool Runnings!

xx

Tuuli.. you are my hero, you`ve put into writing.. so eloquently.. what most of us are thinking. I don`t generally get involved in this kind of crap. My NI is everything i want from a dog.. she looks like a beautiful northern breed... but don`t act like one... perffffffic!

Very impressed with what you had to say.. and just had to say so

This reply was to your post about passing the buck and skirting round the issue.

Maybe quoting all of my post might help!

Exactly Wolfie. If I wanted a general view or recommendation of something I'd ask someone with experience of it. If I wanted more in-depth knowledge of its, say, background and development and I had been unable to find answers I wouldn't complain about it I'd go to someone with enough expertise to provide those answers. A breeder, a society, a dealership, club ...

Many people have asked for advice on their dogs' behaviour. People often try to offer suggestions but a common one is to find a qualified behaviourist. I don't recall hearing complaints that as this is a site of experienced dog owners people should be able to provide the answers and that they are "passing the buck, being defensive and avoiding the issues raised."

Course not; that would be unreasonable.

And if someone invites you to meet their pack, I would hardly call that being defensive.

I must say I am a bit confused. I merely asked what they were tested for so I fail to see how that could be construed as an attack in the slightest :? I agree with a lot of what you have stated, especially regarding the fact that some breeders in ALL breeds don't carry out the relevant tests (we certainly have a problem in our breed with people not carrying out the recommended tests and even some who ignore the results of the testing ) . However, those in the breeds mentioned who do test their dogs before breeding should surely be able to answer my question? As for the point you made with regards to the fact that they are unable to establish health test requirements because they aren't KC registered, well surely this is a moot issue since the 3 breeds that created them are all KC registered and all have specific health test requirements?

All I am asking is what health tests are done (and if anyone knows, or can tell me who to approach, to ask about the dogs used to found the breeds).

My dog "Can" work and is "able" to work. Just because she does not, does not mean she's not able to. Personality as you agreed, plays a big part and every dog in every breed is different. That does not make the dog a bad example of the breed. Also, if you were to breed from only working dogs and produced only working dogs, that all had lots of faults of the breed standard, would you breed from them ??? A dog that was a fantastic worker may have the wrong conformation to actually 'do' the job and would suffer. The breed standard and it's possible capability is more important than whether it actually does it. Any dog's breeding merits come from a combination of it's "abilty" to do the job it was bred for originally due to it's conformation in relation to the breed standard. Original Character, as you put it, IS more important than looks, so if this is the case, why 'invent' the NI or the Ute ???

Actually my first Malamute was a rescue when we lived abroad, that was bestowed upon me without much choice and I wasn't even aware of what breed it was. Looks had nothing to do with it as she had none at the time, and very little fur at all, and we weren't even looking to get a dog at the time. After having her for a while and getting to know her, I researched the breed and then decided we loved the breed.

Sorry, I'm not that shallow or fickle. It's only in the last year that I have been looking more towards looks as there are more important things to consider.

Anyone with any breed should know at least something about their chosen breed's history and enough about their wellbeing and any relevant health issues. Burying heads in sand springs to mind The people with any real experience of a chosen breed are the people that own those breeds, not behaviourists who charge an arm and a leg for stuff they've read from books. Sorry, true experience with the breed wins over everytime. My own Vet had never heard of a Malamute (very common) so was unaware of the relevant health issues related to Malamutes. What does that say about him ??? Is he fit to be a vet because he has no experience of my chosen breed and cannot tell me what to look out for ? Of course he is fit to be a Vet, but I have gained more valuable knowledge from other Malamute 'Owners' that have actually HAD the experience, as my vet has not.

I never said an invite was defensive, don't misquote me or twist my words, the comments I made were a list of answers I have received, I never said that one was a result of the other

If you'd bothered to read the posts you'd see that most of us, as owners, DON'T KNOW all the answers, and many of us know only certain things. However we have tried to help you. You are a very arrogant indvidual in that, instead of appreciating that we have done our best in answering your questions and/or directing you to people who can answer better, you berate us for not knowing enough.

Don't mince words - if you DIDN'T say an invite was being defensive (along with suggestions that you ask the society and not to put down the breed), your comments were misleading - you also said these things were vague and skirting around the issue - your words:



"I asked for the thread to be closed by contacting a Mod, as I was the one who started it.

The reason being, I felt that although some had brought up very good questions, which are important to know regarding a breed, the same answers seemed to come back namely being :

Go ask the Society
Don't put down our breed
Come and see my/our dogs
These are NOT answers but passing the buck, being defensive and avoiding the issues raised.

It just seems that no-one actually has the answers to the original questions on this thread and what HAS been given has been very vague and skirting around the issue.

I didn't see the point in leaving open a thread which was causing arguments, as no-one was willing/or unable to answer the original questions anyway !!!"

I initially said you had some fair questions but I never claimed to know all the answers and advised you of those who would be in a better position than I to 'help' you. Yet instead of being appreciative you have decided to whinge that your questions aren't being answered. So you've chucked it all back at us.

If you really want your questions answered and you're not getting satisfaction here - use your intelligence and contact those in a position to know the details.

Go ask the Society
Don't put down our breed
Come and see my/our dogs
These are NOT answers but passing the buck, being defensive and avoiding the issues raised.

I did NOT highlight these colours, you did. I just gave a list, so why associate these two comments only ? It was just a list

Actually there were lots of 'defensive' comments : like 'don't put down our breed' (instead of answering ANYTHING), as agreed by other posters too.

As for contacting the relevant people to answer my original questions, I think it's sad that a new breed that you are all trying to promote, is being done so, so badly, as nobody knows anything. How can you promote a breed you know nothing about.

How can you claim to be dog lovers and claim to be passionate about your breed, when you cannot be bothered to research your own breed ?

If you are choosing to own a breed who's genetics have been messed around with, don't you think it vital to understand what long term and immediate effects that will have ?

Oh, and I was appreciative, when I said 'Thank you' :?

Yes, Aviemore, not the Iditarod or Finnmarkslopet. And not Sibes. :smt002

Yes, I'm aware you only asked that. But if you know both breeds as you seem to, you would also know what they are usually tested for by owners/breeders (not including the unfortunate few who have been forced to test their dogs for everything possible). Your post was ment to critisise the fact that they are not tested for every single possible disease there is in all the three breeds.

So in using your logic a dog is a collection of illnesses and hereditary defects from all possible ancestors? Here was me thinking the aim was to get better and healthier dogs.

And all I told you was what I have done and plan to do. I cannot speak for everyone else but if you knew the breeds you are talking about like you do, you would have contacted a number of people/breeders and asked what they have checked and will check in the future? :smt002