Utonagans and Northern Inuits ????? Purpose ! Discussions

Really fair post Sutty. We were talking today and would love a house and garden big enough to accommodate a Ute AND a NI!!!

The alpha thing made me smile. . We went for a pub lunch today and brought along a marrow bone for Loki. But not only was he not possessive at all about his bone - he howled for us to dig out the marrow for him when he'd got out as much as he could.

Oh would have love to see that!!! Hope Loki is doing good these days!!!! ... he is still looking gorgeous and even more by the day from the pics i have seen of him ... (can't even remember where and why but was one of these forums!!!!):?

Hi welcome to the forum, its full of lovley doggy peeps that are always IMO helpfull
X shona X oh and dougie

Welcome Jessica!!!
Thank you Alexou, Loki is much the same but the time between seizures has increased, so good news!
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Sorry but I find this rather offensive, I've already posted why I'd like an NI but I'll go over the basic points to answer this.
I love wolfy looking dogs I'd love a Sibe but they don't fit into my life style, so instead an NI fits the bill for me. As long as the breed is well looked after and heathy (ie health tested) than I'm fine with them. Yes I'm against churning out dogs for money and I wouldn't dream of owning such a dog.

Would it be better for me to get a Sibe and have it live a miserable life?

And lets be honest the majority of people who have Mals/Sibes etc were most likely attracted to them by the way they look - wolfy.

The majority of breeds were created by crossing other breeds already in existence, they didn't just suddenly appear.

Many may object to the NI/Ute as it hasn't been bred for a purpose - but what about all those companion dogs out there that were bred soley for that "purpose"? Are you against these too?


Also hearing things secondhand and reading things on the internet doesn't automatically make them true or factual. You can find anything detrimental on the internet about most people, most of which is probably out there from people who have an axe to grind with those particular people.

Hi Sutty, hope you won't mind if I ask some Qs, as I am interested in this.

Could you say how these dogs have been evaluated, have they all been scored? Have the original dogs and those of more recent generations, that presumably form the basis of the Ute genepool as well, been evaluated? How many dogs altogether have been hip assessed? Is the dog Tote-Tims Dreamcatcher at Sulin in the NI pedigrees?

Having a mean score of any particular figure doesn't necessarily mean that dogs with scores approaching this have been bred from. Hip dysplasia is complicated in that it's only ~40% heritable and also polygenic. This means that two low scoring parents could produce high scoring progeny or vice versa but generally, ie over a large sample base, low scoring parents will produce the best offspring.

I take your point on the standard needing some work doing but really, it's a bit more than adjusting the wording. There are huge chunks missing like - general appearance, characteristics, proportions. Also -

Angulation, shoulders are moderately sloping (no mention of upper arm) yet hindquarters are "good rear angulation" This is asking for unbalanced angles and a recipe for movement faults.

Eyes "forward facing." Though predators such as the wolf, do have forward facing eyes compared to prey animals such as ungulates, there is still variation amongst the dog breeds and those which have eye placement that would be described as forward facing, for a dog are the mastiff type breeds. This is most obvious in head shapes like the Boxer. If you require forward facing eyes, within the limits canine construction, the head shape will alter away from the typical wolf type to that of a Rotweiller or similar.

Sorry if this sounds picky...I am trying to be constructive and am genuinely interested

Yes but unfortuanly 21 pages of posts have gone to show that owners and breeders are reluctant or under-educated in this breed to provide an answer. So yes people do have to go trawling the internet and listen to second hand comments. So IMHO you have no-one but yourselves to blame for this. (with exeption from a few)

Malady asked 6 simple easy to answer questions (which in normal terms could have been answered with one post) and got attacked for this. It makes us "outsiders" wonder if there is a reason for all the silence and defensivness!:?

Thankyou BTW for those who have tried to explain to the OP the answers. (even though there was only a few of you;-) )

like i said in an earlier post "its your chance to promote the breed"
can i say its been missed:-(


please note i wil not be posting further on THIS particular matter as all my opinions have been voiced on past posts.

Like your drawings on another thread..Very talented . You should do some more

The only thing we utes and ni owner can say to Malady with ref. to her questions (and it has been said quite a few times before) is that if she wants some proper answers and not some answers from dogs owners, maybe she should contact directly the respective breed societies...

From what i have read a few persons have answered her questions (or at least most of them) and it's either she has missed to read those posts or isn't what she want to hear??? (no offence there ... ).

Yes they are new breeds compared to some thousand of years other breeds and owners still have questions to ask regarding those breeds and find themselves with questions unanswered because things has happened and nobody seems to have the same answer for the same question... that doesn't make the owners of these breeds uneducated and totally our of their mind ...

Things has happened in the past and everyone is trying real hard to past over this and build the societies on solid grounds ... (like i'm sure that would have had happened in any new breed making ... disagreements happen ...). I don't want to enter into any politics but those dog owners have been hearing the same things over and over again and it can be frustrating to try keeping answering them ... after a while it can get to someone's nerves!
I have decided to do an eye test and hip score for Indy not because i am or wanna become a breeder but purely because i wanna help the Ute society collecting results in order to build proper and accurate breed informations...

The other option to have questions answered would be to contact the original people who have started creating the breed, then you would have the real reason why those breeds have been created ...

I don't know everything about the dogs i have owned in the past and present ... does it make me a bad dog owner??? ... i don't think so, i'm not perfect; i still buy bookd about dogs and different training methods, trying to understand a bit more what's going on in a dog's mind (whatever its breed) ...
I know what i need to know about my dogs and if i need more informations i will ask the appropriate persons at that time ... is it wrong to do that? does it make me an irresponsible dog owner?

Like for any breeds you have good and bad breeders who will tell you what you wanna hear... but how can you know who's good and who's bad??

Finally (sorry just can't seem to make short reply!!), some replies that has been posted, even genuine one, some people could read them in one way that could be offensive to them but not to others ... Could also be some misunderstanding with what has been said and once you set your mind on something, it is hard to see outside the box!!!

Why not coming to Ni and Ute shows to know more and meet the dogs and their owners at the same time? ... the more the merrier!!!

Ok firstly, where did I say the term 'wolfy' irritates me ??? I have never said any such thing, in fact it was another member who assumed this was my problem. People say this about my own dogs all the time and is a pathetic excuse for a grudge IMO. I never looked down on any breed, but asked perfectly normal questions that anyone would ask of any breed they were curious about. I think that is perfectly normal.

Thank you for all the valid information you have given, I have read and re-read it and taken what I can in.

I am still unclear about the hip scoring ? You say another breed has a score of 43! yet was still bred from. I'm not asking about 'other' breeds, I was stating that as the 3 mixed breeds all have low scores, would you consider a dog with a score of 12 to be good enough to breed from as for a Husky it would not ??? Surely that should be of consideration ?

Please explain the relevancy of flea treatment and epilepsy, and what you meant by treating them a week before ??? Can you determine when they are going to have a fit ?

it was me that said wolfy irritated you.
Sorry if I was mistaken

I totally agree, as i mentioned in my post, the best way to see these dogs is for what they really are in a real enviroment (not what is written on websites and where the game of chinese whispers has taken over) and to meet them as a group. The breeders, owners, judges etc will all be there to answer any questions, i can gaurentee that when you leave you will have all your questions answered and then some and realise what a fantastic breed we have!! If this is not "PROMOTING" our breed, then there is not alot we can do!!

The flea treatment (wont mention as dont know if its allowed) was given to the dogs a week before

Thanks for all the info and the breed standard.

I did think though that a lot of it was very vague and general and not very 'standard' at all. Some of it could describe any number of breeds. I guess it still needs working on if the breed itself isn't standard enough yet.

I asked questions, because as a new member sometimes there is nothing worse than having to trawl through pages and pages and pages of waffle and members just chatting, for the odd posting of useful information you are looking for and I did have a quick look but couldn't find the answers to my questions, so the topic may be exhaustive to you, but is very new and fresh to some of us.

So now there are 3 I believe :
Utonagan
N.I
Tamaskan

and what is the difference in looks precisely ? as I've seen many of the first two that could easily be mistaken for eachother ??

Can i ask a genuine question without upsetting anyone as that is not my intention..

If the NI/Ute were originally bred to resemble the wolf as closely as possible, why are any/all eye colours and combinations allowed in the Breed Standard?
Wolves eyecolour is varying degrees of brown. They dont have blue,green or bi coloured eyes?

This is obviously the Sibe influence in the NI/Ute. As this is an incorrect wolf trait, are or will efforts be made to eradicate this through selective breeding, or is the eyecolour intentional?

I also own Malamutes but i am honestly trying to understand this breed and the motivations of their breeders so have tried to word these question in a way that wont cause offense.......

And for anyone that wants an introduction...

Hello everyone, My names Jessie, and im a Malaholic!

Please explain the relevancy of flea treatment and epilepsy, and what you meant by treating them a week before ??? Can you determine when they are going to have a fit ?

ok dont be twisting my words now, im not stupid, i simply meant that the dogs that had had seizures had been fine before they were treated with a certain flea treatment, but after being done had had massive siezures . i tried to explain as much as i could but its obvious to me you really dont give a s**t and are just looking for an arguement, so if my breed is so bloody repulsive to you, dont flamin look at it. thanks to everyone who has supported us but i think we are fighting a losing battle here, i dont come on here to have to defend my dogs every 5 minutes, but to talk to other doggy minded people and to admire their pictures and share in their joys and sadnesses and it makes me weary having to explain things time and time again. I like this forum but the snobbery is getting terrible, makes me wonder why i missed it, most of you are great but the odd few will never accept us so i aint gonna bother anymore:-(

Actually I wasn't twisting, I thought you were implying that the flea treatment was in someway helping to prevent the fits and wanted to know if this was a proven method. It was just the way I read it.

I never said anything was repulsive, actually I think Pugs are repulsive but that's neither here nor there, each to their own I suppose, and I will no doubt be lynched for that.

I am not slating your breed, but asking very valid questions. I have read all the replies and a lot of them, although genuine, seem to skirt around the actual answer and not give the answer to the question originally asked. I like Jessie, am curious to know more. Going to meet hoards of them will be of no benefit to me, if I havent researched enough about the breed first. I don't always believe in 'googling' for answers either as alot of it is rubbish, as it is with my own breed, so thought it best to ask 'real' people with 'real' dogs and 'real' experience.

I have to say. I listed my questions without malice, genuinely wanting to know the answers for my own reasons, and have been met with very few real honest answers that are relevant to what I asked and a lot of snappiness, defensiveness and assumptions.

If you want people to accept your breed you need to prepared to accept people INTO your breed, instead of driving them away !

I can understand you not wanting to trawl through all the postings . Yes , the breed Standard needs rewording .
No there are only 2
The NI and the Utonagan
The tamaskan Dog was renamed after the UTE split
And yes Malady, the older Ni's did look like Utes before other dogs were added to them . There is no such dog as a Tamaskan ...a name change in a day ...look in the tamaskan thread

I welcome everyone to our breed, and i try to explain as well as i can, obviously I dont know the thoughts or reasons behind the creators of the N.I as i wasnt there in the beginning, but i love my dogs wholeheartedly , do you know how tiring it is to be slated all the time, i dont come on here to argue, its the last thing i want to do, and through all the derogative comments that have ever been made about us, i have bitten my tongue and stayed cool and not risen to the bait like some, but i can understand their frustrations. All i can say is that most of us are doing our damndest to maintain good health and sound temperaments, what could be more important?

If you need to know the answers to questions we cannot answer please go to the relevant societies. That is why they are there.