Utonagans and Northern Inuits ????? Purpose ! Discussions

There seems to be many people on this forum who have deemed themselves in one way or another as authoritive figures on both or either 'breed' of Utonagans or Northern Inuits.

So, I have a few questions, that maybe these authoritarians could clear up for me, as searching through these threads hasn't answered. I'll try to be as clear as possible.

1. As I understand it, the Utonagan was bred to look like a Wolf, for Wolf lovers who could not find another dog that resembled a Wolf in looks and structure. Please correct me if I'm wrong. So, why was the Northern Inuit 'invented' ??? Was it again, for the wolf looks and if so, why not leave that to the Utonagan breeders instead of competing for another new 'breed' ??? If it was for another reason, please explain ?

2. With these crossbreeds deriving from 3 pure breeds all suffering from Hip Dysplasia, among other things, what is now considered to be an 'acceptable' Hip score to breed from in a Ute or NI ??? i.e, a NI with a HS of 12 would be HIGH for a Husky etc so why would that make it acceptable to breed from ?

3. As yet, I cannot find a 'breed standard' for either breed, so is there one, as on looking at a lot of them, I cannot see anything consistent in either breed ????

I've read these threads on these breeds and am amazed that there are lots of discussions on hip scoring (with no real answers) and 'looks', yet I have yet to come accross anyone talking about the dangers of crossbreeding the original 3 breeds in the first place with regards to their temperaments !!!

This is only a very rough example, but am picking out well known traits in each breed. I have purposefully left out good traits, as they don't result in a dog being rehomed or PTS.

GSD - Guard/Attack/Teritorial Dog
Siberian Husky - Manic/Fast/Pack orientated/Dominant
Alaskan Malamute - Pack/Dominant/Stubborn/Strong willed/ Very Powerful

4. To me this is a recipe for absolute disaster and a timebomb waiting to happen ! Who in their right mind would risk possibly having ALL of these traits in a dog, just for the desired 'look' ??? How irresponsible ! Can anyone answer THIS ???

5. As anyone who has done any hereditary research will know, it is possible for temperament, traits and physical disorders to generate in not only offspring, but also grandoffspring too.........or was this considered and accepted as worthy of taking the risk for ??

6. In What group will these 'breeds' be placed ?
A Wolf lookalike is just that.........a lookalike 'designed' for just THAT, so why would it warrant being placed in a 'group' ? If it is to be placed in 'Working'.....WHY ? There are already the necessary amount of other breeds who cover the jobs they were initially bred to do ! These crossbreeds will never NEED to do that job and it's pointless breeding them to do that job, so how can they warrant being placed in the Working Group ?

I hope someone who has some answers can come up with them, without skirting around issues. I do NOT wish to fuel an argument, but am confused about the whole thing with these breeds to be perfectly honest and would like to know their purpose.

Ok I by no means consider myself to be an "authoritive figure" within the Northern Inuit community but I will do my best to help awnser your questions as best as I can.

"1. As I understand it, the Utonagan was bred to look like a Wolf, for Wolf lovers who could not find another dog that resembled a Wolf in looks and structure. Please correct me if I'm wrong. So, why was the Northern Inuit 'invented' ??? Was it again, for the wolf looks and if so, why not leave that to the Utonagan breeders instead of competing for another new 'breed' ??? If it was for another reason, please explain ?"

Ok the Northern Inuit started out way before the Utonagan, the Northern Inuits were created approximatly 18 - 20 years ago with the Utonagans being created by a group of people who broke away from the Northern Inuits & have only been around approximatly 8 years with their type not being as established as that of the NI. Now correct me if I am wrong anyone but I believe after the origional split of from the Northern Inuits the then called Utonagans split again to form the British Utonagan Society (BUS) & the British & International Utonagan Society (BIUS), after improting many health problems into their lines the people who ran the BIUS dissassociated themselves from the Utonagan name & moved to Finland with their dogs & left the BUS to pick up the pieces.

"2. With these crossbreeds deriving from 3 pure breeds all suffering from Hip Dysplasia, among other things, what is now considered to be an 'acceptable' Hip score to breed from in a Ute or NI ??? i.e, a NI with a HS of 12 would be HIGH for a Husky etc so why would that make it acceptable to breed from ?

Unlike the Utonagan the the Northern Inuit does not have hip problems, these started after the Utes broke away. It has only been since January this year that getting hip scores for NIs has become compulsary, before that many serveys were done on stock as it aged & no hip problems have as yet cropped up. We do not have an official published breed mean score as yet as I believe that until recently NI couldn't actually be scored as NI (thats not to say none were scored; they just weren't scored under the NI name) but we hope to have an official breed mean score in the very near future, the society has been pushing very hard for this & many dogs have been scored this year, I don't know peoples exact scores or the highest score produced to date but have been told they were all low. As for Utes the breed mean score is 27 so I would assume they consider any score below that as 'acceptable' for breeding but the Ute people would be best to tell you for sure.

Just to add conterary to popular belief the NI & the Ute are not made up of the same 3 breeds, yes both breeds started out as Husky, Mal & GSD but during the creation of the Ute Belgium Shepherd, Collie & Akita were added as well as re adding some of the founder breeds. So it is now only the NI that consists of 3 breeds the Utonagan consits of a few more than that.

"3. As yet, I cannot find a 'breed standard' for either breed, so is there one, as on looking at a lot of them, I cannot see anything consistent in either breed ????"

I cannot post the link (againt forum rules) but if you look in my profile you will find the link to my website, that contains the breed standard for the NI it is also on the NI forum but you would have to join to gain access to that.


"GSD - Guard/Attack/Teritorial Dog
Siberian Husky - Manic/Fast/Pack orientated/Dominant
Alaskan Malamute - Pack/Dominant/Stubborn/Strong willed/ Very Powerful"

No one has denied that these dogs are very powerfull & strong willed, pack orientated or stubborn they are all of those things and so much more. These dogs do not guard or attack and are generally very submissive. It has taken much time & carefull breeding but on the whole these dogs now have a set temprement, I won't deny their maybe exceptions to the rule but you get those in every breed.

4. To me this is a recipe for absolute disaster and a timebomb waiting to happen ! Who in their right mind would risk possibly having ALL of these traits in a dog, just for the desired 'look' ??? How irresponsible ! Can anyone answer THIS ???

These dogs were not bred purely for their look, but to also to create the ultimate family pet that is also very versitile & can turn its hand to many different things. We have many who have passed bronze, silver, & gold KC good citizens awards and one being trained up with the RAF as a search & rescue dog & a few who are qualified PAT dogs. Other than that I canot comment that is a question for the more experienced, but however I am sure the founders took the breeds & all their traits into carefull consideration when starting out & only used dogs of the best temprements. I would imagine selective breeding played a pretty big role here too.

"5. As anyone who has done any hereditary research will know, it is possible for temperament, traits and physical disorders to generate in not only offspring, but also grandoffspring too.........or was this considered and accepted as worthy of taking the risk for ??"

This really relates back to your last question & again that is not for me to awnser.

In awnser to 6, they would be placed in the working group, this is because they are capeable of so many jobs, as listed above we have some 'working' as PAT dogs & some 'working' as search & rescue dogs hopefully in time they will also be used for other services as well as being good at agility & capable of carrying out the job of their originators as sled dogs.

Why shouldn't they 'warrent' being classed as a working breed, all 3 breeds used to create them were 'working breeds' and they are capeable of 'working' & can carry out many of the jobs of their predessesors.

I thought groups were based on original function??? Thereby assuming utility would be the place if ever recognised ... capability to work lies within most breeds in all groups .. I have owned gundogs, terriers and pastoral breeds all PAT dogs and all good at agility, obedience and that can run in harness

"These dogs were not bred purely for their look, but to also to create the ultimate family pet that is also very versitile & can turn its hand to many different things. We have many who have passed bronze, silver, & gold KC good citizens awards and one being trained up with the RAF as a search & rescue dog & a few who are qualified PAT dogs"


Sorry do not know how to do proper quotes BUT

To me this is not a valid reason to breed a crossbeed.

As many Alaskan Malamute owners would tell you - there are many Malamutes in the PAT scheme, Malamutes that have done very high levels of obedience, Malamutes that compete in agility, Malamutes that Show, Work as Sled-Dogs and even Malamutes that work as Sheep-Dogs!

If this is not versatile then what is??

Malady welcome to the forum. Would you care to introduce yourself and your chosen breed?

Would also be very interested to know if you have met any Inuits or Utes?

By the way i am a only an owner, not an authority on the breed. Mostly i know my own dog lol. Also i think angelmist has said everything i would have said and then some.

I would also say that the very best way of finding the answers to your questions would be to get in touch with the relevant societies and then you will know that the answers you get come from the authorities governing the breed. You can find contact details for both societies online, although you may have to join the inuit yahoo group to see their contact details (i am not sure) as their website is currently down due to reconstruction.

why we chose the NI..
Fantastic looking dogs, intelligent, loving, only need moderate exercise, great recall.. can be let off the lead, great with all over animals (introduced early on)

Reasons for not choosing a founder breed..

GSD just doesn`t do it for me.. looks wise

Sibe.. Fantastic looking dogs.. but, high prey drive, need loads of exercise, selective recall, can`t be let off the lead.

Mal.. Again fantastic looking dogs, can`t be trusted with smaller dogs though.. i suspect traits are similar to the sibe.

As we have 11 teenie tiny dogs in the family that all interact on a daily basis... the above two breeds cannot be considered, for this reason alone.

I would suspect the reason for most people wanting an NI, me included it has all the great points of the three other breeds.. with none of the drawbacks...

excellent thread Malady - I shall be interested to see what's said here We've had similar discussions here before (btw - i don't think they're allowed now, but not sure) and they never got anywhere, as no-one was willing to answer these types of questions.

Thanks for posting this.

xx

Usually its nice to post an introduction Malady (I presume you are a Malamute owner, only your profile is very vague?????).
I own Northern Inuits and do not think they are a 'recipe' for disaster quite the opposite.
I think this thread was created to cause trouble yet again as its been round the mill a few times already I think if you go back over old threads all your questions will be answered.
Laura if you have a question you havent had answered just ask, Ive never not answered if you have asked me a question.

Zounds it may not actually be that people arent willing to answer these types of questions but that they DONT KNOW the answers to the question. Im sure that a lot of people (im talking more average owners rather than breeders) could not answer these questions of their own breed.

I'd love to answer all these questions. But as i wasnt there at the beginning (20 years ago i was 2) and i wasnt involved with the creation or government on the breed and am simply an owner, I CANT! But i stress that is not because i dont want to.

Every single question asked needs to be asked of the relevant Societies and/or the creators of the breeds. It is the people involved in the original creation process that you really need to speak to. Hense i say again, those who want answers to these questions please get in touch with both the Ute and NI Societies because they govern and regulate the breed and i believe many people involved in the original creation are still a part of the Societies. Only THEY are really qualified to answer these questions.

Well heres Azz's thread on this topic:

http://www.dogsey.com/showthread.php?t=38997

Mmmmmm, i suspect you know the N.I very well indeed, and know all the answers too and i really dont see why i should have to defend my chosen breed all the time, when questions are always on the negative side, please come and meet my pack and see for yourself, you could even bring yours if you like.

Thanks DobieGirl. Not sure that is relevant because no one breed has thrown any mud at the other on this thread. Me personally, i love both breeds and am completely uninterested in any 'politics' between the two. Also its not about which is better more about the hows and whys they were created and governed. Like i've said the questions need to be put to the orignal creators not the average owner.

I wondered when this would rear it's head AGAIN!!!!!!

I beg to differ...

My three all regularly play with tiny breeds including a lhaso-apso, a pug and a peke...

Surely this is down to the dog and socialisation on the owner's part - not the breed??

Malamutes were bred to work with a team of dogs - I have had no problems with mine at all.

I agree Char.

My sister has a Malamute and a chihuahua. They get on famously, in fact, it's the chihuahua that bosses the Mal around

Hi there

You have some fair questions here, although perhaps already some pre-conceived beliefs? I understand fully that people would be concerned about the health aspects of a breeding programme and ethics but I don't understand why these two breeds seem to attract the animosity that they do.

I hope this doesn't fuel another heated row although I suspect it will. Just as recent media attention has been anti bull-breed, causing bull-breed owners to feel defensive about their dogs, and understandably so, a similar thing happens time and time again on this subject.

Not sure who you mean by people 'deeming themselves authoritative figures'?

There have been many discussions/rows on here on this very subject although whoever said, 'they never got anywhere, as no-one was willing to answer these types of questions.' is being unfair as most of us are only owners who don't actually know some of the answers, yet try hard to answer and/or direct questioners towards those who might be able to.

There have been some good answers to your questions so far but if you're still not happy I can only point you in the direction of the relevant societies - Northern Inuit and Utonagan and the Utonagan Dog Club where you will find people who are more capable than I am of answering your questions, although whether you will agree with or be satisfied by them is another thing altogether.

In any event, although I myself have had issues with my own dog's breeding, I don't know about 'a time bomb waiting to happen'. My dog is dog-dominant (not to the extent of actually hurting another dog though) but that does not seem to be inherent in all Utes and he is a serious people lover. No problems there at all and that does seem to be a common trait amongst both NIs and Utes.

"If it is to be placed in 'Working'.....WHY ? There are already the necessary amount of other breeds who cover the jobs they were initially bred to do ! These crossbreeds will never NEED to do that job and it's pointless breeding them to do that job, so how can they warrant being placed in the Working Group ?"

Ah, you see some people will find your deliberate use of the word 'crossbreed' as inflammatory.

Dog breeds and their 'jobs' is interesting - yes, some breeds do actually still get to do the job they were originally bred for but many, many others don't and would be incapable now anyway (already been the subject of a Dogsey discussion some time ago, sorry can't find the link for you but will post it if I find it). Many of these jobs are no longer required so the dogs are now kept only as family pets or for the show ring, so do you think that these dogs should no longer be bred? Course not.

Forgot - WELCOME TO DOGSEY MALADY

Why not introduce yourself and your dog(s) in the Introductions Section.