Do we know what we own? Discussions

Hayley, about 6 months ago Dogs today ran an article on American pitbulls, which illustrated how gentle they are around people and particualrly children. It suggested that the DDA banning pit bulls was ridiculous given their gentleness in the right hands.
I listen to everyone and read and devour everything I can so that I LEARN form all sides of an argument...I have a gut reaction to things based on my experience but I go out there actively seek out differing opinions to my own so I gain , hopefully, a balanced view. Never dismiss whole groups or organisations as being totally against you as sometimes they could be your biggest and strongest vehicle for pushing your cause (depending on what that cause is).

and i have learnt so much more since that and understand what i own, i used to think alot like u did sadly! But with understanding and the ability to learn and listen i have since seen the truth and that a real stafford lover wouldnt even try and pretend that its history didnt exsist
and as for your comments about dani minihaha are you being clicky by any chance?

Hayley i'm sure that responsible 'molosser' owners know exactly what they have. My best friend has had rotties for years and no, you are right, he doesn't think they are soft cuddly fluffy dogs, but for god's sake, they are loving, calm, well natured animals.

It's not just these breeds who would stand their ground. I've known 'softer' staffies than weimaraners, who wouldn't fight even when provoked, whereas the weimys would. But they were no less a stafford. I could put a bet on it, that you wouldn't be able to 'notice' their 'softness' just from how they are around the home - just like any aggressive staffy i've met, and yes I have lived with both aggressive and placid natured staffies.

It's not just 'molosser' dogs hayley, any dog owner of any breed needs to understand what their dog is capable of.

It's just that not all breeds have the hidden tendencies to be aggressive to one of their own species.

Can I ask what you opinion is in breeding out the L-2HGA genetic mutation?

"If the other dogs maybe growl or bare its teeth I would expect a Stafford to at least show its A STAFFORD''

- in this case my Weimaraner would show she is a Stafford, does that count?

First of ask me anything i will answer with a honest mouth

If people didnt try and change the breed the L2 HGA would not be in the breed
I would be 100 percent for breeding it out
But i know that if people didnt tamper with the breed to begin with then it would not be there

still agree with it, was refering to shouting and swearing minihaha not the fact i want to keep the stafford the way it should be

I'm glad to hear that Hayley

i have no idea about weimaraner all ive heard is there are skitty like red setters but only heard.. so could be untrue

but like i said its not just physically a stafford should appear as one, it should also have the personaility and traits of a stafford

cant make a whole package without it all can you

where has any stafford owner said that they would object to breeding L2 out? because thats wrong random and i would personally smack them for it

dont you see i want to keep a stafford a stafford nad that means health problem free also! I would never change thier appearence, traits and personalilty! but always be up for breeding out health problems that hte show world created

Weimys don't tend to be 'skitty', a 'skitty' red setter is frowned upon because it would be useless as a gundog, (gun shots, 'skittyness', not a good combination). The Weimy's breed standard actually states "Fearless, friendly, protective, obedient and alert."

The point I am trying to make Hayley is, it is not just the staffy who would stand his ground to the hilt. I have no objection to this, I would like to think my dogs would protect me, and themselves, if need be. But they are not randomly, or generally dog aggressive.

The vast majority of breeds get on well with other dogs, if socialised and trained properly, but would also stand their own ground. Why would it be wrong for a staffy to be this way, rather than the instigator of fights, having such tendencies that he cannot mix with other dogs for fear of what he might do!

Do you not feel it would be better for the breed as a whole, if they were friendly and fun loving with all they meet, but still fearless and bold with it?

There's no real need to retain the aggressiveness. It is no longer required of the breed, and often poses a hinderence to it's lifestyle in today's society.

No-one suggested keeping the strain Hayley, not here anyway. But I just wondered what your views were as you seem so against changing the staffy. I was just curious how far you would go to keep the 'stafford a stafford'.

Hayley I assume you mean cliquey by this question, and as you berated Mini before because she made what you classed as a rude post against Housedog, the same could be said for you.

Mini was just agreeing and pointing out her point of view using Danis dog as an example, nothing more nothing less.

Just as Housedog who hasnt been on here for months and months appears all of a sudden to back you up to the hilt. Now thats what I call cliquey.

because it will take ALOT OF BREEDING OUT to take away the instinct to attack another dog

I know i could let bessie and let her play BUT if the other dog turned then she would attack them hard and i mean hard, staffords lose thier control when they attack and is it worth harming another dog because they want to play, or are we making our dogs human like again because it us who wants them to play, but this is not natural for a bull and terrier breed

Apart of the dog spirit is Brave and Strong and take away the fact they posess dog agression then you take away that!

I dont want my dogs attacking any dog and they play happily with just 3 of them but watched very very closely just in case a fight my break it! I could deal with my dogs aas i can control them but cannot control anyone elses dogs! so if a fight broke out between my lot at least i can control mine but the owner of the other dog may not be able to

so is it worth the risk

as im sure that owner will walk away and say what horrible dogs stafford are

SO would i rather allow my dog to play with other dogs because its cute?
or would i rather walk away with my staffords and avoid any fights as another dog or mine could get injured or worse and then also someone saying what bad dogs mine are

My dogs dont try nad kill everything at sight but i wont risk it
why is that wrong?

HOUSEDOG has not stuck up for me, i dont think he has acutally said my name roxy and you not doing the same by sticking up for minihaha, goes around in circles right?

It's not wrong Hayley, but in the eyes of the majority, the Stafford has room for improvement, and this includes excluding dogs with aggressive tendencies from the breeding programme.

"Apart of the dog spirit is Brave and Strong and take away the fact they posess dog agression then you take away that!" - My dog is brave, (sometimes stupidly so) and strong as an ox, but she is not dog aggressive.

I am friends with a lot of people who show their Staffs, they have strong, bold, brave, fearless and biddable dogs. No dog aggressiveness. And contrary to popular belief, a lot of these owners also frown upon what the show world is doing to their breed. A lot of them do prefer the more athletic build of Staffy, for heath reasons, but MINUS the aggression, and are therefore fighting for the breed standard to change, for the good of the breed.

Hayley two questions for you both require a nice easy 'Yes' or 'No' answer.

1) Was walking Jas one day. We were both minding our own business and Jas get's attacked from behind. Jas reatliates as all dogs would BUT he doesn't bare his teeth. He pins the dog to the wall using his own body strength, gives out a low grumble and lets the dog go. All this was in a matter of seconds. The elderly lady who witnessed the attack told me she was expecting WW3 to break out. Would you say Jas had lost his 'stafford spirit' cos he didn't 'attack' the other dog, just gave it a warning?

2) Do you want to see the stafford on the DDA?

At this point 23years ago my first Stafford "Megs Fearless Warrior" would have been 7 months old. I loved him then and I still love him now, his blood runs in the viens of my present dog Glory, which was a big factor in my choosing of Glory to continue my life with The Stafford. I was 28years old when i got my first dog, and I wanted to raise him oh so correctly. In the 27years prior to Rocky, I had walked Greyhounds for a number of owners, looked after and on occasion went out with my uncle and his working terriers. I also worked on a farm for about 5years again I was priviledged to be around working dogs. I had the honour of knowing Jocky WheatenxRussell who would have faced the Mongol Hordes and spat in their faces. There were many more dogs in my life, to numerous to mention as this is an explanation not a tale. Proir to my getting Rocky I had seen very few Staffords and to be perfectly honest had not paid the breed much attention. With Rockys arrival that was all to change, I flooded my mind with every peace of writing I could find to do with our breed, all of the do's and dont's of our breed handed down by experienced dogmen, and brilliant canine authors. One thing continually puzzled me where were those authors own stories of their lives with dogs, the tales of daring do, that anyone one of us who has been around and truely lived with dogs would have in abundance. I could find none in the Bibles written by the percieved authorities on The Staffordshire bull terrier. One of the most important things my time around working dogs taught me was never to delude yourself, for if you did at some point your dillusions would slap you squarely in the mouth.

I had raised Rocky as best I could utilising all I had gleaned from my former contact with dogs. Rocky first serviced a bitch in April of 85, he was just over 2 years old, " a kind of late birthday present -)(& " the deal was a free mating to allow Rocky to prove himself as a sire, the bitches owners were adamant that I either take a pup or the money equivilent to a pup, if the mating was sucessfull. This is how I came to bring Boss home at 6 weeks old, he was my pick of the litter, and he was to become the best dog my great friend John would ever own, even though at this time I did not know John, through Boss we were to become as brothers, I still see John as my brother to this day. At seven weeks old I advertised Boss in the national newspaper, the first call I recieved was from John. It can be really strange how life unfolds, for the exact words I used when purchasing Rocky were exactly the same as John said to me, " I will take him" this remark was made over a phone, without ever having seen Boss. I arranged a time for John to come and see the pup, and for me to scrutinise John. All went well and I was perfectly happy for John to leave my home with Boss, knowing he would be well looked after and cared for. At least once a month John would visit, and we'd talk of the great breed we were now involved with, and what our hopes and asperations were for Rocky and his son Boss. We both basked in the glory of having the Ultimate canine warrior, whilst at the same time having the most devoted family dog imaginable. On one of these visits John mentioned that a friend had purchased an American Pit Bull Terrier. Good for him I thought " but what the hell is it?" John was really impressed by Craigs dog Zak, and asked if i would like to see it. After John explaining to me what the APBT was meant to be I could not wait to see this yankee canine that claimed monarchy over dogdom. I was sure in my heart that no matter what this dog was like it could never outshine my Rocky. The day came when John, Graig, and Zak appeared at my door. I was dumb struck the presence of Zak was all encompassing. That dog "ZAK" embodied all the virtues of all the working breeds I had ever encountered in my life, and I was so impressed. We went to my local park and Craig put Zak through his paces,retreval, flirt pole, and all round athletic manouvers, Rocky was active and agile but was not comparable to this dog Zak in any disipline. I thanked Craig for his visit and complimented him on his dog. Let me make this perfectly clear Rocky was and is the greatest canine I have had the pleasure of being part of. The encounter with Zak made me face reality. how could two breeds of dog who less than a century ago were basically the same breed, become poles apart. I researched this question vigoursly and came to the conclusion that one had been bred for decades with cosmetic values uppermost in the breeders mind, the other solely with performance the objective. I have heard the APBT called mongrel, devil dog. and many other names thought up by those who fear him, for that is the way of the coward to name call for they do not have the heart to face their intended victim. During the mid 80's and into the 90's I had the honour of seeing some of the greatest APBTs ever to be in our country. I will never breed Staffords the equal of these canine athletes, for the ability to do so is sadly lost to the KC Stafford. I will however attempt to breed Staffords who to the best of my abilty are capable of attempting to fulfill their birthright, and function as healthy dogs should. So it is from these years of being around functional canines that my goals are set, not from having an in depth knowledge of the British road system incase I miss my next show, but of years of folllowing and watching functional dogs do what they like best exercising in the open air.

For what Rocky gave to me in his lifetime, I feel that I owe him, and his breed a debt. which I will try my best to honour.

The above is part of the reason I feel so passionate about The Staffordshire bull terrier, they have been altered, "not for the better in my opinion" I have no wish to see this "Unique" breed suffer more unnatural injustices at the hands of those who claim a love of The Breed.

I think quite a few members have already stated they have experience of walking or seen others walk a large nuber of Greyhounds without problems. They don't have the same aggression that you talk about.

I think some people still need to evolve and it's sad to see them stuck in the stone age.

Just because something exits or we have the capabilty to do or feel something doesn't make it right to do it. Someone could walk up to you and pull a knife on you and kill you - just because they can or want to, does it make it right? Of course not!

Freedom of thought /expression/ speak /action - comes with responsibility, and as evolved beings we really should know better.

Nothing you have said can justify such aggression in dogs today. Hopefully, one day you'll see it.