Do we know what we own? Discussions

I don't think Mini was rude she was honest and to the point which is the way it should be, she was merely stating an opinion of which many people would and do agree with

As I have stated all along dog to dog aggression is something that should not be tolerated Staffords don't fight in Pits anymore (unless your a low life) it is not a desired trait and also one that is no longer needed within the breed, sorry but that is a FACT.

If it was desired and people were not working towards breeding out this trait how comes theres no mention of 'should be dog to dog aggressive' written within the Stafford standard? Infact if those traits are written within the Standard and I have missed out where it includes these traits can you please point them out to me?
Infact if you wish for these traits why dont you both put yourselves forward to help with writing out the Standards, lets see what futher damage you can do to your own breeds or the Bull Breeds group as a whole being as they are all being tarred with the same brush here.

I find your reply not unlike that of The Media, "Demonic Dogs with equally Demonic owners" which thankfully for most Staffordshire bull terriers could not be further from the truth. Many breed enthusiasts are only to aware of their charges traits, "taking care to avoid at ALL costs any incidents with other dogs" Like it or not the trait that is disliked by some is precisely the trait that gives The Staffordshire bull terrier his/her affinity with the human-being and furnishes the tolerance level shown towards Humans which very few, other than Bullbreeds possess, ie: I would feel less wary of assisting an injured Staffordshire bull terrier than breeds outwith the Bullbreed umberella. Sadly the next time an incident involing a Staffordshire bull terrier occurs, "and it will" the first question asked will be, "Are YOU unaware of the full spectrum of the canine you own?" unfortuneatly for some the answer to this question would be YES!!!.

I just had a look at the standard:

Characteristics: Traditionally of indomitable courage and tenacity. Highly intelligent and affectionate, especially with children.

Temperament: Bold, fearless and totally reliable

To me what that would suggest is a dog that obviously gets on well with people esp children when in the right environment BUT if you refer to the text in bold it would also suggest to me that this is where it's possible 'aggressiveness' with other animals comes into play.

in·dom·i·ta·ble (n-dm-t-bl) adj.

= Incapable of being overcome, subdued, or vanquished; unconquerable

I take that as meaning that part of it's characteristics may mean that if it gets into a fight it is not going to back down and will do all it can not to submit. The standard has no mention of aggressiveness towards other animals or that it is a desired trait from what I see, but you can see how part of a Staffies characteristics can result in 'aggressive' behavior. So if you remove what is interpreted as aggression are you removing this characteristic "Traditionally of indomitable courage and tenacity"?

The way I see it still is that they will only be heading for the DDA because of some of the idiots owning them who don't understand them and are exploiting them not because of what they are at present.

I believe that just like every other standard those who worded The Original Standard were MORE than aware of what the Standard was to be based on. Just as those who worded The Saluki Standard did not base the standard on a dog bred for gaurding and not running.

The Stafordshire bull terrier Standard was based on a "Functional canine who's goal in life was to secure victory against an opponent" it was most certainly not based on a dog seeking to be the friend of every other canine counterpart.

OK, I know I said I was ducking out, but I can't help myself. And apologies in advance because, unlike Mini, I am going to be rude.

Housedog, what a load of s**t! Your position is untenable and you're talking through your backside to try to confuse the issue. Affinity with humans and affinity with other dogs are not mutually exclusive, and anybody with two brain cells to rub together can see that. Any number of dog owners on this site can testify that their dogs are reliable and well-mannered with their human and canine packs. Perhaps most dogs just don't warm to you, but then neither do I.

With respect mini I do see dismissing someones post as 'twaddle' isn't paying them any respect. You do always usually go out of your way to add a smile and offer really respectful opinions even when they differ to someone else's...but have to say if it was directed at me I would feel slightly patronised by that. Although obviously it is an important topic close to peoples hearts...You are one of my role models in forum etiquette! but I did think that was a little off.

Courage and tenacity...

Words that are routinely used to describe virtually any terrier. I don't know anybody who would interpret them to mean that it's acceptable for a terrier to be aggressive, and I suspect that most staffy owners would have a different understanding of that description than the one you've come up with.

Sadly there are some stafford owners who do not consider the stafford to actually be a terrier-not sure where they cook it up from!

Now I am using this as an example obviously some of the Bulldogs traits have been bred out BUT :-

Bulldog

Characteristics
Conveys impression of determination, strength and activity.

Temperament
Alert, bold, loyal, dependable, courageous, fierce in appearance, but possessed of affectionate nature.

Obviously Bull Baiting was outlawed, became illegal the Bulldog no longer served its purpose (hence why its now in the Utility group) and if it wasnt for the fanciers it had the breed would not exist. I am not going to get into a debate about how unhealthy some happen to think the breed are, but they too at one point possessed everything you are wishing should retain within your breed.

Sorry but its all a load of waffle, breeding out such traits as I mentioned before will NOT make them any less of a dog.

Hi there you left out the really important word though 'indomitable' (meaning above) I didn't say that means a Staffie should be aggressive but I did say that I can see where I would take that as meaning that they would not back down from a challenge.

Nice to make your aquantance Duboing.

I go to a handling class every second Wenesday run by The Scottish Staffordshire bull terrier club, "Of which I am a commitee member" having just rubbed my "Two braincells together vigoursly" I can say hand on heart I can think of NO two dogs, "far less quantities more numerous who would gladly run together" these are dogs/bitches being prepared for The Showring.

Yes, myschievous, I did see it. Indomitable courage. The adjective indomitable applies to the noun courage (rules of grammar), not to the dog. So their courage is indomitable, cannot be defeated. If you read it carefully, I think you'll have to agree that it has nothing to do with aggression, or dog fighting, in any sense.

Hi...but surely this also translates that anything a staffie becomes set on, it will not submit, be subdued or be conquered...So surely it isn't a dog that is going to back down from a challenge in the form of another dog.

I'm not saying that it means Staffies should be aggressive far from it but you can see how in certain situations a Staffie may well be aggressive to another dog it felt a challenge from.

What I'm saying of course is that should be totally controllable and what makes it uncontrollable is idiots exploiting part of it's character.

So what I have said all along is it wont be the Staffies characteristics that place it on the DDA list it will be people who have exploited it's nature...which I don't think disagrees with anything you or anyone else has said.

16 pages later-and has their been a valid reason for why not to try and raise a stafford in the correct way, so is not dog aggressive instead of merely accepting that a stafford will cause of its breed? has a valid reason been presented as of yet as why not to try and breed out the dog aggression by only breeding dogs with astounding temperaments, and not deeming dog aggression as acceptable behaviour?
If there has been i have yet to find it amongst the posts.

For those who are saying taking the dog aggression out of staffords will change the breed, destroy it even i would like to share somethings with you.
Terriers (not as in bull)-Terriers have been bred to have much a different and more biddable (yet still high spirited-gladly) personality, most terriers today are of a lot more sound temperament then their original hard hunting ancestors would have been. Can terriers still perform their function of vermin dispatch?-in most cases the answer is, yes.
So many breeds have changed in todays society-its called evolving! I can think of only a VERY minute handful of breeds that could not fullfill their original purpose, in some cases this is not down to the evoloution-merely change of times.

Also-i did not perceive Mini's post as rude, merely someone (who, like me!) is at the end of their tether and annoyed by how this thread is just going around in circles-yet still questions aren't being answered!

Think this is a thread which will go on forever..

My point and how this all started was though that Hayley amongst a few others said that a stafford is not a stafford without its dog aggressiveness which is just NOT true. As many of you have pointed out it doesnt even mention dog aggressive in the breed standard, yet some breeders are perfectly happy to breed from knowingly aggrssive temperament dogs which is just not right - you wouldnt condone it in any other breed.

people are always going to be the staffords downfall - but its not just the twits that own them for their hard man status its the breeders who continue to breed aggressive dogs and the people in this forum who are stating they find that acceptable.

I know what you are saying Housedog that people should be aware of the tendency of a staffie that it can turn on a dog, i understand that - so could any however there are many examples of staffords that dont and never have turned on their dog companions - and I beleive thats down to very good socialisation at an early age and no bad experiences with other dogs.

I dotn think that any staffie owner will argue that their dog IF involved in a fight regardless of the starter of said fight would not fight tenaciously - however thats a TERRIER chracteristic - you know the old saying tenacious as a terrier and NOT just a staffie characteristic - JRT can be exactly the same.

I am extremely concerned when reading many of the staffie owners posts who say they love their dogs yet still find it acceptable that aggressive staffies are beign bred from and effectively encouragiung that as being "breed standard" which it is not !

Luke - just seen your post - exactly !

this is getting a bit ridiculous to be honest - I cannot fathom why stafford owners on this board are effectively condoning dog aggression as a desired trait in the staffie.

With respect do any of those own a dog aggressive staffie who day in day out would happily fight with every dog it meets on walk - yet is actually a big woos - and is reacting purely out of fear and lack of socialisation.

Have any of you taken on a rescue with these traits - given up by its previous 2 owners by the age of 2 because it was too much to handle.

Do any of you see how many staffie and staff crosses are in rescue and cannot be rehomed with other dogs due to their dog issues and wait patiently for someone to take them on warts and all and be willing to realise what is at the end of their lead????

I cannot understand why you wish to add to this list of dogs requiring homes that simply arent their to give them.

Everyone who is arguing for keeping dog aggressiveness in staffies is effectively deeply punishing the staffie.

Its a well known fact that staffies go into the wrong hands - day in day out and if we keep actively encouraging the dog aggression in them by continuing to breed from dogs who are particularly dog aggressive in temperament you are just fuelling the fire for the potential future awful owners that these pups will head to.

You should be ashamed of yourself for wishing that on the staffie.

For me the staffie is a fantastic breed, I adore Bruno but it would be so much easier if he didnt have the dog issues he has - for me and for him. He didnt come into this world wanting to kill everything he met he was nurtured that way by previous owners who then gave up on him when they realised what a handful he was turning into.

Get sensible people - do you really want to see the staffie on the DDA List through no fault of its own?


reposted as I feel so strongly about it !!!!!

So with the origins of the SBT being for dog fighting and one of it's main characteristics being "Traditionally of indomitable courage and tenacity"

Unless that means indomitable courage and tenacity for say..Hill climbing....what do we take it as meaning?

I guess the only thing I can interpret Hayley etc as saying is that for an SBT to be zero dog aggressive you are going to have to dilute that characteristic a great deal and I guess it is that characteristic as well as any others they don't want to see go as to them it will change the breed.

Would you expect a JRT to be safe left alone with small furry creatures?