Border collie v working sheep dog Working Dogs

erm - just read the 1st 2 pages of this thread

working sheep dogs or border collies

ive got 2 collies

and the breeder ive seen that i would love a pup from are from working collie dogs

is there a massive differnce in temprament in working sheep dogs and just border collies??

It all depends on the individual dog I guess, but my collie is from working lines. He is worked on sheep so channels a lot of his energy into that, although he is fairly laid back in any case. What would you be doing with your new dog? I think as long as you give them plenty to think about - whether that be working sheep, or agility, flyball, obedience etc then you shouldn't have a problem. Are your other collies from working lines or show lines?

They are one and the same breed, they are all `just` Border Collies.
This is what the KC refuse to acknowledge on paper, thats all. They are not two different breeds, nor can they be split in to working ability or non-working ability simply by the KC allowing some to be registered by their breed name but not others.

If someone whose Border Collie had zero worky traits was mated to the next door neighbours equally non-worky Border Collie, and neither dog were KC papered or if they were but papers were not passed on for any reason upon change of ownership, the offspring would not be recognised by the KC as Border Collies even though thats what the pups would be, and would call them working sheep dogs instead if they were later registered for agility or obedience etc.

So you can have the least sheep orientated Border Collies which get called working sheep dogs and you can get truly worky dogs which do work sheep throughout their lives but if they were papered the KC would call them Border Collies and not working sheep dogs.

The only difference in the names is down to KC snobbery, not genetics.

If you are wanting a potentially worky minded Border Collie, and want a pup, you would be best going via ISDS, or better still via a Border Collie rescue which assesses the dogs in their care and match them to potential owners depending on the dogs temperament for any kind of work, [ or non working ], and the owners experience and ability to offer the right environment for each dog, ie if hoping to to do agility, competitive obedience, a pal to throw a ball around for then curl up on the sofa, or yes, even potentially to end up working sheep ;-)

sorry

im planning to do obedience and agility

my other 2 border collies are from a local breeder

Did I see somewhere else you were looking at getting a pup from Astra? If so, it would probably be best to speak to Janet Beale herself, tell her what you want to do with your prospective pup and she should know whether her lines or a particular litter may have a suitable pup for your needs.

Are you others KC or ISDS registered or unregistered?

I got the impression that Suze wanted to know the difference in temperament between KC reg collies and ISDS reg collies - although I could be wrong :?

There shouldn't be any difference as the KC breed standard is supposed to describe the perfect working dog !

My Rjj is both ISDS & KC reg as all my BC's have been, my next will be a KC only registered dog, but he will have both ISDS & KC only dogs in his pedigree(he will actually have some NZ bloodlines at the back of his pedigree, but will have ISDS dogs much closer up thank goodness)

I am assuming this is rather a tongue in cheek comment?

Does anyone know of a KC reg dog that has ever won a major (or even minor for that matter) trial?

No KC only bred dog would win a major trial unless it was a very very very good dog & your average ISDS dog wouldn't win the International or National trials either but there is a guy in the midlands(I think)who went from showing his dogs to trialling them with some success & the dogs bred down from them have won open & novice trials etc, he's qualified his dogs for the English National trial he hasn't as yet made the English team for the International yet I don't think

Don't forget not all good trials dogs are good working dogs, some are only good on the trial field & some couldn't work a full flock of 250 + ewes, there are some like Derek Scrimgeour's Ben of course that are well able to do both with great success

Do you think this is because of breeding or training ie are there specific lines that are generally better at either working or trialing? Or is that once is dog is trained for one, he becomes less good at the other?

Personally I would just say that some dogs are special. I wouldn't say that it is particularly a breeding or training thing, but perhaps a bit of both with a healthy dose of good luck thrown in. JMO.

LOLOL

Confusing isn't it

Any dog registered with the ISDS can be registered with the KC as a Border Collie, it is only the KC that draws a distinction between WSD & BC If you look on the KC site there is a special form for registering ISDS dogs with the KC !

Some WSD registered with the KC are not pure bred sheepdogs at least one Ob Ch had a non collie in her pedigree !!!! You can call any dog that looks like a sheepdog as a WSD on the activities register could be from unregistered mongrels for example ! which is why the KC do not guarentee that they will register puppies from such dogs(although they usually do !)

I much prefer ISDS dogs, but my next one is doubly bred to a very very special Ob Ch, Rookie(the Ob Ch)maternal Grandfather was bred by a very special & wonderful friend of mine(sadly no longer alive)& he was so proud that his breeding lines had produced such a wonderful dog. Rookie's son won the Crufts Obedience Championships & he himself was placed on his last appearance at Crufts, this is probably my only chance to get a puppy with Rookie & Gunner Keele in the bloodlines(Gunner Keele is also in Rjj's breeding!!)

The breeder of my dogs had a dog years ago that gained all three titles working, obedience and in the showring. I believe it was the first one in the breed to actually do this.

Doing agility I have friends who have both BC and WSD. A piece of paper from the KC makes no difference.
What is important is that pups are from healthy, hipscored parents with CEA checks and temperaments are good.
I was turned down from a litter as the breeding was from strong working lines. Although I do agility and flyball with my dogs, I was told this would not be enough for their dogs. They needed to be worked. I totally respected them for their honesty and integrity. I eventually got my dogs from the same person which are show lines in general. However the dogs from this breeding have gone in all directions to obedience, working, showing, agility etc.
What I was looking for was a healthy, carefully bred dog with a good temperament and hipscore history and that is what I got.

Wow - that must have been a special dog. Who was it? How was the dog bred?

Hi Moobli, not sure of the name but I shall find out. Thinking about It I think it may have been the first red and white dog to get the triple as opposed to the first dog to do it. I shall find out next time I speak to my breeder and let you know. I just remember her telling me about it when i spotted a lovely dog picture in their house.

By the way. Stunning photo of your two dogs. The one where they are up in the hills. Where is that? Looks beautiful and reminds me of my walks in Scotland.

Absolutely agree. I have dogs that are all from the same breeding, yet all are different. One will work sheep, one will work a tennis ball
Joking apart though you can have such a difference within one litter. And the pups can throw back generations not necessarily directly back to one or the other parent, in looks and also in character. I do believe good breeding plays a part though. Then it's down to the owner to train and build a relationship with the dog.

Who is your dog's breeder?

Thanks The photo was taken in Wester Ross earlier this year. It is one of my favs and I have had it enlarged and framed

Moobli. Have PM'd you

Thanks, have replied