New mom to Kharma Discussions

That's a whole different subject.

As we've completely derailed this thread, why not start a new thread.

Haha--I'm hangin' on by a thread here. As soon as I understand the distinction you're trying to make, I blink--and it's gone.

GENERALLY speaking to your point: In other words, you could state that if a dog is home alone and being videoed, and does something HE THINKS is wrong DOG behavior, he would act guilty after the act. (Again...generally, and not every dog.)

(But what would a dog consider dog-wrong, home alone, no other animals--by the examples you used, nothing, since chewing and such are natural to them and they only know them to be "wrong" by human conditioning.)

Same dog, alone, being recorded doing wrong by our standards, not his, would show no guilt on camera...only when a human arrived to find what they'd done "wrong."

You don't have to respond...I'm just over-thinking this whole guilt thing, I guess.

And still, Kharma's mum has not been back to see what we thought!

Simplified yes.

My childhood boxer anticipated punishment/anger to many actions to the point that as soon as she did it, she did the "guilt cringe". She didn't even wait for a person to come in. But again, her visual signs were a reaction to her expecting to be punished/yelled at. We never yelled or punished her, but her prior owner had - to the point she had a pavlovian response to certain things.

I think for most creatures, humans included, the feeling of guilt isn't a facial/body appearance, but an internal feeling in our guts. We don't necessarily show our guilt. But we feel it.

I doubt dogs feel guilt because they are only doing what dogs do. I do think, however, they know what pleases us and what doesn't and when they've done something they know we don't approve of, they make appeasing gestures to get us back on side.

I do, though, think they have a whole range of other emotions that are very similar to ours

No. Ok so you are talking about guilt , you’ve mentioned feeling rising up inside , and these I have placed in the basket of what I’ll call this ‘animal self’ which humans also have , lower self , action and reaction/reward .
(Maslows heirachy of needs).

No amount of human left brain twaddle , is going to account for the fact that its right brain stuff thats closer to the truths .
Hence why you would better looking at the dogs eyes through the feeling center. Their actions and being are tied to feeling .

The critical piece of the puzzle (which is infinitely large) is EMPATHY.

empathy is what is between an enlightened dog and owner , and that is this bridge of feeling .

if you insist that guilt is a manifestation of action reaction for (whats going to happen or in it for me kinda thing) then sure you will find this behavior.

What I would be more interested to see found is EMPATHY .

Then you will see consideration for and even linking feelings. The dog does not just react to its own interests , it works through feeling the way IT INTERACTS not only mental left brain ideas .

hence why the door is
shut to scientific mental contortions and instead perceived by the child .

Dogs have empathy to the same sorts of circumstances where the 2 become 1 in Love.

I propose its a marriage with infinity , and feeling is the gateway .

Yeah I was a bouncer and security guard for a couple decades . I have seen that stuff too.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/...-your-dog-really-does-care-if-you-are-unhappy

"...to gain comfort for themselves..." as the article states, can make sense, at least in a human mind. In the situation of the golden retriever, the sadness in the owner made the dog feel (what? uncomfortable? uneasy?) and made a suggestion to the owner what would make him feel better when his head in her lap didn't provide the comfort he needed.

But...I'm not sure we (scientists included) don't create storylines that will fit nicely into our ultimate lack of knowledge about a dog's mind. We always have to have an answer. I'm not religious, but it seems akin to "in his own image." Whatever we can't explain, let's force a conclusion that suits our purpose.

I said I wasn't going to add to this hijacked thread anymore yet here I am.

The study he mentions considered that the dog may be seeking comfort for themselves. However, the results showed that the dogs were approaching the crying stranger in the same way as they approached the crying owner. If the dog were simply looking for their own comfort, they would have looked to their owner regardless of who was crying. That the dogs went to the crying stranger does suggest that they were attempting to comfort the upset human rather than themselves.

Lets see , psychologists , scientists , religion , philosophy , dog trainers , behaviouralists ,

can we get letters after our name ?
Like Phd , esquire , esteemed colleagues .

Would look good on Business cards ‘joking’ , looks like we could add a little universal synchronicity to the thread adventure too . As having arriving at the door of the unknown .

So I was at work looking after a stage and some band equipment overnight at a outdoor venue.
i would take my cattle dog to work as an extra set of eyes .
She and I being best mates so we could hang out anyway . She met famous singers on our jobs , bands , choirs ,acrobats , ballets , fireworks ,dancers , bagpipes all sorts of things .

So she was young and I was training her to look at the gate as new people came through , maybe a bark to let me know .

So this guy is coming through the gate I had never seen,
i wad hold her facing the gate between my legs, asking her who’s that ? In an excited voice who’s that ?

She did not bark and the guy made his way to us within a few seconds was standing close having pulled out a business card from his pocket . He flashed it in my face with a smile .

? question what was on the business card ,
He was a dog trainer , specifically training dogs to do that kind of work for police , security and shptzhund’ stuff .

Great timing !

Oh the adventures of a dog and owner together . so many unexpected surprises of life we can enjoy ,

This kind of synchronicity and adventures really breaks scientists heads , anything abstract or unknown coincidences , and especially metaphors and parables .

they have their slit particle observation experiments where they behave differently when being watched , they have schrodingers cat theory .

They should know when viewing energy which is proven is a unified field , through their reverse mirror eyes into their brains , thats its secondary .

We can make judgements it is a funny thing . There is always the bigger part we don’t know .

The river that is not dried up , that unknown .

oh yes I think its derailed , apologies if the o.p has not enjoyed the way this adventure turned out .

I have enjoyed it