Which breed! Discussions

I meant to put ? Not ! Sorry.

I’m not ready to get a dog again yet am still researching,

I’m trying to decide between Airedale, Belgian Malinois, Schnauzer, German Shepherd and Berger Picard (Picardie Shepherd).

I’m interested in a breed with working potential for Utility dog level obedience and or Schutzhund 3 level training eventually. If I could find the right trainer I am interested in protection dog training as well. I also might consider agility training.

I want a breed that is usually absolutely loyal to its family/people, naturally protective and wary of strangers (until they are proven to be accepted by the dogs family members vas trustworthy) that would make a good protection dog and excellent watchdog.

German Shepherds are a bit large in my opinion. I’d prefer a breed I could lift in my arms if it had a medical emergency (so I prefer breeds under 75 pounds or 34 kg although I kept German Shepherds on the list even though I probably couldn’t lift a full grown 85 lb or 38.5 kg male because I’ve always wanted one and it’s such a versatile breed).

At work I regularly lift weight up to 50 lbs (22.6 kg) so I could likely lift up to 70 or 75 lbs in an emergency but I’m not sure about that (with the help of adrenaline perhaps even 100 lbs 45.3 kg because once my dad was falling backwards off a step and I yanked his 180 lbs body forwards so hard he thought he was falling forwards towards me instead but I don’t want to count on it).

Whatever breed I get will have to be able to be alone at least 4-5 hours while I’m at work (I’m close enough to come home at lunch to be with my dog for about 20 minutes of play).

I expect that I’ll walk it about 2 miles or 3.2 km a day at least once a day even in bad weather. In good weather I might walk it as much as 8 miles (12.8 km) but that’s a guesstimate.

I don’t think I’ll be hiring a dog sitter or walker to help.

Also, I had mild dog dander allergies growing up. I’m ok as long as I don’t touch my face after touching a dog so low allergy dogs are not critical but would be a happy bonus for me.

Which potential protection breed would be my best choice and second best choice please.

First off, I don't recommend protection dog training for family dogs. It it unnecessary and can have far reaching repercussions. When I worked at a boarding kennel, we used to get a protection trained shepherd once a year when the owner was required to take a work trip. For two weeks, we workers were subject to a violent non-responsive dog. We could not feed the dog without baiting him with another person until we could lock him in the outside part of the kennel - then we could enter the inside and put the food down and lock it all up before we let him back in. There was no way we could easily ensure he was not injured or sick because we could not even walk past his kennel without him trying to get us. This was not because the dog was bad, but because the dog was trained to view everyone who didn't know the command cues as a threat. And the purpose of protection training is to do just that. Most vets are unable to handle such dogs if an illness or injury occurs. And if you have kids, their friends and parents are often very wary of coming round to play.

The four dogs you mention are naturally going to be protective of you and your family. They don't need to be trained to attack others in order to be protective of you and yours. And they will all "sound the alert" to intruders.

With that, I will address your other wants only.

Malinois tend to be very high strung and focused and determined. They are very much a working dog and while they are great at utility, agility, etc, they can be too intense for families with young kids, etc. That goes for the laekenois also. We are seeing many of them in shelters as that intensity requires a knowledgable and firm but positive owner. They are NOT "my first dog" dogs. The tervuren and groenendael varieties are less intense overall and offer a good "family/utility dog" mix.

The begian shepherd varieties are all of similar height as german shepherds, the difference in weight is usually due to a slighter narrower build. It can be just as difficult to carry them as it is a GSD.

All the breeds mentioned will be protective of family. They will ALL require extensive socialization as puppies or they can become overly fearful, territorial, and/or aggressive toward other dogs and people. The Berger Picard would be the smallest of the named breeds.

I have owned a groenendael and GSDs. All were protective of their family, but none were aggressive due to proper socialization. Just yesterday, I was walking my dogs through a park and passed a group of young men playing craps. They smiled at my large JRT mix. They were wary of my GSD. She didn't need any special training to be a strong deterrent - just her appearance and her very calm well-behaved manner were enough to make an impact that said "don't mess with me". For 98% of people, that is enough of a "protection" or "guard" dog that is needed. The truth is she is very people friendly and has never shown any wariness around strangers. But she looks like she could be trouble.

A groenendael is also very impressive appearance-wise with their solid black coat and big white teeth. Both they and the GSD would create more wariness from strangers just by their looks. The schnauzer and picard will be the least intimidating appearance-wise. The tervuren to me is less intimating than the groenendael just due to the different coat coloring. To me they look more collie like and that lessens the impact.

All can handle daily walks as you describe. Four hours alone is not out of the question, but they will need to have mental stimulation (like agility and utility) and should not be left in a yard with no toys/activities to keep them occupied.

Good to know.

When I’m thinking of protective I’m sort of thinking because of newscasts talking about women and middle aged people and old people being mugged and or attacked walking alone for their money or to rape them and they shouldn’t walk alone. I’m hoping that any dog I got would come to my rescue if such happened (I don’t actually expect that stuff to happen).

Also protective like if a neighborhood or strange dog started growling and behaving aggressively when I am just walking by that the dog I’d get would warm it off and if need be defend me if that dog decided to attack. This is the more likely scenario where I live.

A long time ago I had a neighbour’s Rottweiler come on our yard and behave threateningly. It ended up ok because it was me who encountered it and I’d learned what to do. To not stare it down, not run, not yell and wave at it, not advance on it, and not turn my back.

I just slowly backed away and went into my house door keeping an eye on it all the while being careful not to trigger it into attacking. Those people kept it chained on their porch never seemed to walk it and it had gotten loose.

Those people and that dog are long gone but there are quite a few bad dog owners around.

Dog owners of the kind who don’t exercise and socialize their dogs properly near where I live and no nearby dog parks for them to go to either so my main concerns would be aggressive dogs not rapists or muggers to be perfectly honest about it.

Protective also meaning as to defend me if I’m camping and or hiking on vacation and encountered aggressive wildlife like a bear.

I’d defend my dog if it was attacked too of course (assuming I could depending on the situation)

Thats what I’m looking for in protection from a dog one who’d come to my aid if needed as opposed to running away in the opposite direction.

I hope that clarifies what I’m actually looking for in a dog beyond training it to a high degree and teaching it tricks like jump through a hoop. A faithful loyal true blue companion animal that would love me as much as I would love it that would defend me as much as I would it if the need arose. That and a dog that will bark to alert me if something is amiss.

I kind of have a slightly silly attitude against most small dogs (any under 40 lbs) I’m afraid I’ll trip over then and kill them accidentally if the dogs too small.

Oh and I don’t expect it to fight a bear I’m not stupid I’d expect it to distract it so I’d get away. Then to run after me and get away from a bear if that scenario happened. Unless I was being mauled then I’d hope it would bite the bear so it’d stop attacking me. Then we’d both get away somehow and survive to tell the tale. I don’t ever expect to run into a bear though.

I would have included search and rescue training as something I’d like to do with a dog but I don’t think I’d qualify even if the dog did so I didn’t mention that above.

CDX and UD both do scent work so even without doing search and rescue the dog would still have its scent fun since that’s how high I’d like to train it once I have a dog

I hear you about not protection training family dogs. It was simply something I’d contemplated but wasn’t sure about. Some of the training videos were making me think twice even before your comments. I just wasn’t sure how protective a dogs instincts are if they haven’t been trained for it (then again, I grew up with cockers and they didn’t have a protective bone in their bodies far as I could see.)

As a side note I never really liked Cockers not sure why exactly other then them being too small and too friendly to everyone.

I understand that logic.

As a single woman, I have found that just the presence of a dog is enough to deter a robber or rapist. There are much easier targets out there. And a dog who barks is a major deterrent.

When we were kids, my sibling, a friend and I took our three dogs to the local park. One was my dad's unneutered show husky. The second was my sibling's groenendael. The third was my very very gentle rescued purebred white boxer. She was timid and gentle and non-threatening. She would lay on the floor while kittens, parrots, pet rats, and other dogs climbed on her to get on the couch. She was never dominant or assertive. She always walked slightly behind me with her head down in a submissive posture.

While we were hanging out in the playground, two twenty-something guys showed up with their extra large chocolate lab. They threatened to sic him on us. The dog was in front of them in a threatening pose.

My boxer stood in front of us and growled at that dog. Of all our dogs, the sweetest most easygoing dog was the one that was going to protect US. The other two dogs just stood there not paying attention. If anyone was looking for a protective dog, my boxer would never had been looked at. She never did that again - but the one time we were being threatened, she was right there.

You just can't tell if a dog will actually protect you until it happens.

I camp a lot. Dogs are more likely to attract a bear than to chase it away. A dog that chases after a bear will antagonize the bear in a fight. When the dog realizes he's vastly outweighed he will run to you for protection. The bear will follow.

Again, dogs work best as a deterrent. A bear is less likely to come into your campsite if there is a dog. They will avoid you and go to the campsite with no dog.

I'm not a small dog person. The only small dogs I would consider are terriers because they have spunk. The rest are just too yappy and don't seem to have much individual character. A chihuahua is either a shaking wreck or an aggressive jerk to my mind.

At around 40lbs, I would go with a beagle. I never cared for the spaniel looks. I prefer a sleeker appearance.

Cockers were once the breed with the highest bite record. They were succeptible to ear infections and kids liked to pull on those long ears which hurt them, so the dogs would bite the kid.

I don’t actually do much camping I only wish to hiking tough on suburban trails is a different story I do that whenever I can. So I don’t really expect to encounter a dog and my uncle’s camp where I might have well he died so I do go up Sudbury way now that’s where I’d have been likely to encounter a bear his dogs did several times up there.

oh the spaniel cross I think had hound blood in him huge deep bark (only time he barked was to tree a raccoon at night) you’d think he was a mastiff from his bark. His ears were hound shape. Until he did that and later had chased a skunk out the yard I didn’t like him at all. Started to like him when did that at 13+ years when he started being a dogs dog. He weighed 40 lbs I actually weighed ne&him then me an subtracted the difference. He’s why I don’t think 40 lbs is too small.

If I thought I could handle a Tosa or Mastiff I’d consider them I’ve always liked dogs the bigger the better. Knowing myself and my abilities that’s why I’m sticking to 40-80lb dogs (approximately) in my possible choices.

So to sum up the above Toedtoes: you recommend GSD’s or Belgian Shepherds as first and second choices for a newbie like me with high level obedience aspirations.

I hate thinking I’m a newbie but I’ll admit it. Sharing responsibilities with my parents years ago didn’t give me real dog ownership experience so I admit I’m a newbie with big dreams.

thanks for your input. Got a couple more questions if you don’t mind.

1) In temperament how do the 2 breeds (Groenendal and GSD) differ and how are they similar?
2) Which of the 2 breeds would be easier for a novice owner like me to raise and train?

I’m aware from your above comments and reading they aren’t the best choices for novices/newbie owners but I am serious about desiring to train up to UD and compete at that level with the dog I choose.

That is why I was considering these breeds in the first place along with their reputations as being protective of their family and family’s property.

So which do you feel would be slightly easier for a newbie to raise?

I’m not set on a puppy btw by raise I’m meaning bring home develop a relationship with and train the dog to the desired level of obedience more then raise as in grow the dog/puppy from 8-12week puppy (baby) to adult dog because both raising a puppy and training a newly obtained older juveniles puppy or older dog are both forms of raising them from my perspective.

I haven’t decided on age as I’m still deciding on breed and ownership is still in the future. I would love a puppy but I currently don’t think I’d reject a juvenile or adult of the breed just because it want a puppy.

1) groenendaels are less likely to have separation anxiety. Shepherds can be one person dogs - reserving all their love for just you. This is why they are my favorite - there's just nothing like being the center of a dog's world. Overall, they are pretty similar in energy and such. The groenendaels can be prone to herding people and cats, etc. We used to have my younger sibling run and then send our groenendael after her. The dog would grab the bottom of her pant leg and hold on until she stopped running.

2. As a novice, and in that you are not set on a puppy, I would actually recommend looking for a rescue shepherd or shepherd mix. You can find one with the energy level you want and with a shepherd mix you can end up with a great agility dog.

I fostered a shepherd husky mix. Her adopter did agility with her and that dog outran every border collie and jack russell in the bunch. Of course, being part husky, when it came time to compete, she would decide she had nothing to prove and would run out of the ring...

Shepherd labs are great. My Moose-dog was a shepherd/poodle/newfie and he was an amazingly wonderful dog - loved by everyone he met. The shepherd part often shows in their eagerness to please, the other breeds tend to tone down the potential neuroticism.

Also, they are very easy to find as rescues. Whereas the other breeds will most likely require buying.

Remember the bigger the dog the shorter their lifespan.

I definite do remember that (chihuahua may live 20? Spaniels 15 German Shepherds 10 or so no data on Tosa’s but at their size they’d likely only live 5-7 years).

Tosa’s are huge 200 lbs approximately they’d eat me out of house and home and probably take up a great deal of room besides(plus I’d have no chance of holding them if they pulled on lead even if they were only 6mo old.).

Why are you so narrowed down to these breeds, two of which you think are too big anyway? You mention the Schnauzer here, (Min. Giant or Standard?) and the Airedale on your other thread - would you be able to deal with a hand-strip coat, or would you have them shaved? The Picard is really the only one that matches your criteria. I would certainly not recommend any of the molasser breeds if you are looking for Obedience or Working Trials success - too slow moving, and too heavy to cope with the amount of jump training.
Having said that, almost any dog is capable of doing obedience and working trials to the level which you describe. Here in the UK we currently have a Jack Russell Terrier which is on 2CC's and looks as if he is likely to gain his title soon.
My obedience friends thought I was mad when I went searching for a small Border Collie and came home with a Beagle, but what a proud Beagle owner he made me! Eddie started with his Good Citizen (Gold), then qualified Beg.Ex in obedience. He won his first Open Working Trial while I was on chemo. (This was the goal I set myself because my oncologist would only allow me to train in the open air). Ed then qualified CDEx at his first Championship Trial, and was competing well in UD when his bowel disease was diagnosed. I retired him due to the clear and scale jumping.
In his retirement he passed his hound scenting test with a perfect 80/80 score, did a little heelwork to music, and tried an agility induction course - which he loved, but which I wasn't fit enough for - I am in my late 70's. My previous trials dog was a Terrier Lurcher who was living rough in the city. What a handful she was!
I am going to be boring and suggest breeds that are willing to listen, have a guarding instinct and are not too heavy. The Border Collie has to be number 1. If you want to qualify, look at the results tables and follow the throng. 2. Australian Sheepdog,
3, Staffordshire Bull Terrier.
If you want to do IPO, or whatever they are calling it these days, it really has to be a working breed - forget about looking for something small enough to carry.
Whatever breed you pick go for a puppy with the best possible health test record. There is no point in spending five or six years training to have to retire your dog on health grounds. Been there, got that t-shirt!

When I was reading this, my mind went to my previous dog, Sam, a Border Collie. He was very laid back, but he would always defend if there was a threat.

For example, we had two dogs then, but one had a broken leg so while I walked on the prom with her, my hubby took Sam on the beach. A dog flew out of one of the caravan sites, straight onto the beach and growled at my husband. Sam got it by the scruff of the neck, dragged it to the water's edge then trotted back to my husband. The aggressor didn't come back

I was thinking standard Schnauzer when I mentioned it.

you mention Staffordshire bull terriers unfortunately all the bull terrier breeds are illegal to own where I am currently and though there’s talk of lifting the ban it’s unlikely to happen (illegal to own in Ontario with 1 exception seemingly being people who bred and showed Staffordshires before the ban? I’ve seen a breeder of them listed as living in Ontario. The other allowance is no longer valid which is bull terrier breeds owned prior to the ban since those dogs are likely all deceased.The ban began August 29, 2005.

Banned: Bull Terrier, Miniature Bull Terrier, Staffordshire bull terrier, American Staffordshire tTerrier, and American pit Bull Terrier (technically a type not a recognized breed). Also probably covered by ban: the American Bulldog.

As to the mollaser breeds I was using them as a example of how I’ve always loved the look and thought of bigger bulkier stronger dogs and the thought of owning one.

My main ambitions for when I get the dog are high level obedience competitions. I mentioned IPO (Schutzhund) because it is a form of high level obedience completions but with protection aspects.

I’m not really certain about the protection part though, the reason being whether a protection trained dog might react badly to guests as well as the fact that in every video I’ve ever seen the dog attacks the unarmed arm which is utterly illogical. Supposed the bad guy had a gun and the dog goes for the arm that is not holding the gun? Dog gets shot end dog (maybe also end of owner).

The videos make such training appear counterproductive and in opposition to a real life scenario where you’d need protection as they appear to teach go for the unarmed arm.

In those videos the baddie continues to beat on the dog showing me at least that in real life the dog would be ineffective with regards to saving my life in event of a baddie attack since those dogs are not disarming the baddie.

I see your points and will give them and breeds,consideration., especially regarding age (since I’m not sure my area has the Category All-American which would allow a unregistered dog (purebred or not) to compete.

I do want a large intelligent dog breed however partly for he intimidation factor with regards to potential bad guys. Deterrence being better then having to actually have the dog fight someone or something in my defence.

I do however, strongly desire a breed that has the instinct to defend if circumstances occur requiring it to act which is why I named the Airedale, German Pinscher, Standard Schnauzer, German Shepherd, Belgian Shepherd breeds, and Picardie Shepherd (Berger d’ Picard). They are known to be protective breeds and are for the most part under 100 lbs.

Attempted to edit to fix American Staffordshire Bull Terrier where part of the name got cut off but couldnt

As much as id like to believe any of my dogs would protect me I doubt very much when push came to shove they would. Thankfully i never had to put them to the test.
I don't know what they would do if somebody was actually ATTACKING me or broke into my house.
I am of the mindset that my GSD’s were a deterrent rather than something to actually protect me, If a dog has never been in this situation, you may never know just what the reaction might be.

A dog that has never been professionally trained to protect a person may not know at all what to do in a dangerous situation,

My Dad took his husky through the obedience trials. He took his first akita through tracking trials.

It's true, any breed can do it. How much effort it will take or how long to reach championship will vary on many things.

If you go with a smaller breed, the beagle is great. You could also look at the terriers: irish, fox, lakeland, border and welsh.

Border collies and aussies are the standards these days. They have become as popular as the labs, goldens and shepherds. There's a reason for it.

Of the mollaser breeds, I'd say the boxer is the most flexible for agility work. They tend to be quicker and less bulky than the other breeds.

A lot really begins with what you like appearance-wise. You know you don't like the spaniel look.

My Moose-dog protected his friends, especially his Aunt C. If we were walking a trail and someone passed us, he would stop in front of her and watch to make sure that person kept going. If I was walking him on my own, he never did that.

I like to believe that he trusted Bat-dog to protect me, but he really really loved his Aunt C.

In all honesty, I am happy with a dog as a deterrent at most. As soon as they feel the need to protect, they are at increased risk of being injured or killed. I just couldn't bear the thought of losing my dog like that.

It’s less the looks of spaniels I don’t like it’s more their personality. Trying to run over to every Tom Dick and Harry looking to play or get a belly rub from them even if the person’s a perfect stranger. As well as trying to go up to any dog they looking to play with them. They have very little sense in my experience and also tending to forget their training in their desire to befriend everyone.

I mean sure they’re generally sweet tempered and gentle but the always looking to everyone and everything as a playmate wasn’t what I want in a dog. I’d prefer dog breedsthat are cautious with people they’ve never seen before as opposed to Cockers that try to befriend everyone even to the point of not noticing their owner is less enthused with them trying to befriend the door to door salesman.