Cesar Milan vid on how to choose a dog General Chat

Was watching this short Cesar vid on how to choose a dog/pup .



I’m not sure how I feel about it , it follows a certain logic ,
I feel it’s a generalization .

he says there is : front of the pack (biggest pup )
Middle of the pack (pet quality)
back of the pack (runt )

he discusses their personalities according to this logic .

feels like it’s a bit like describing star signs and there will be great variation .

then he goes on to grade them by energy level , nature , etc

by this logic my pup is - back of the pack as he was smallest .
- high energy

and sensitive and so on .

needed to have me be the leader so he feels secure .

he was always independent and slept alone and didn’t need comforting much , not sooky .

this has changed somewhat as he has bonded with me he wants to be around and have approval and mateship , probably part of his breed too .

He also mentions back of the pack being able to tell the weather and when someone coming miles away because of sensitivity .


grey areas arise ?

And my older dog is front of the pack ( biggest pup )

and so apparently it makes her the choice for a confident job , he mentions the police dogs and so on .

when I went to get my pup , he being the smallest had what may have been the biggest pup there pinned on its back and was putting the kybosh on it lol .

now , I can see what he is saying and see these traits in the pup and I’m not discounting it .

I just think it is good food for thought , so I enjoyed the perspective , although not sure if I’m committed to this theory it’s interesting none the less .

a bit like some quiz they give humans , about whether they’re an introvert or extrovert ,
Something you might find in a glossy magazine which perks your curiosity to find out

Sorry, but I trust my own judgement. Not Milan's.

I diagree with most all of it.

First he says that only "front of the pack" dogs are in the show rings. This is so not true. Even the "runt" can end up being a champion dog.

He is trying to steer away from the terms "dominant" and "submissive", but that is basically what he's saying - the biggest puppy is the dominant dog, the runt is the submissive, and the rest are neither.

Any dog can be confident and outgoing and independent. I remember when we got my sibling's Belgian Groenendael (Belgian Sheepdog in those days). She was the "runt" of the litter. She grew up to be a high quality show dog. She was confident, independent, and outgoing. She may have been the smallest puppy, but she was not submissive or sensitive.

And biggest of the pack doesn't mean "pick of the litter" or best show quality. That puppy may be oversized, may have color or marking faults, may have temperament issues, etc. "Pick of the litter" simply means the puppy who got picked by the first person picking a puppy from that litter.

Tornado-dog was the biggest in his litter. He was also "pick of the litter". But only because I was the first adopter to pick. I had two friends who both picked him last out of the three males - had they been the adopter, the biggest puppy would not have been the pick of the litter. Which becomes pick of the litter also depends on the sexes of the puppies. If the first chooser wants a female puppy, then it is unlikely that the biggest puppy will be the pick of the litter.

Which brings up the gender issue. In some breeds there is not a lot of temperament different between the sexes. In other breeds, there is a big difference. So, a smaller female may end up being more confident and outgoing than a larger male.

I also don't like that he separates energy level from the breed. A "low energy" Border Collie is still going to be high energy in comparison to a "high energy" bulldog. And the difference between a "high energy" bulldog and a "low energy" bulldog is going to be far less than the difference between a "high energy" and "low energy" golden retriever. Picking the right breed for your energy level is far more important than picking a specific energy level in a litter.

My next complaint is the entire "protection" concept. I really hate the idea of getting a dog "for protection". If you want protection, get a gun. If you want a dog get a dog and if he discourages thieves, etc, because he's there, great. But training a dog to be protection is unnecessary and dangerous. Protection work is for people with a real need - like police, soldiers, etc. Families don't need that kind of protection. The idea of "protection dogs" is why shepherds, rotties, dobies, pit bulls, etc, get a bad rap. Because punky Joe Blow or drug dealer Meth Head or macho guy Ima Man think having an agressive dog is a status symbol. Having Cesar talk about the biggest of the litter being good for protection feeds into this attitude. The truth is any dog can protect you - even the runt of the litter - not because of it's place in the pack, but because it loves you.

I can’t stand Cesar Milan. I don’t like a lot of his training methods

He's the one that fashionized the "bite the dog's ear to show dominance". Just dumb.

Welcome to the club, Marc.

My male Akita is an ear nibbler. It’s a sign of affection, not dominance

Oh my sakes, one of my dad's did that too.

His second akita used to stand over my mom, when she was sitting in her recliner, to look out the window. He'd lick her hair while he did it. My Mom used to say she'd make a million selling akita spit as a hair gel.


The main problem with Cesar's (and others) methods is that they don't acknowledge that a dog can tell the difference between a human and another dog. A human doesn't need to "show dominance" like a dog because the dog is bred to recognize human as different than dog and as something to look to for direction. Even highly independent and stubborn breeds like huskies know that a human is not a dog (OK, they also know that human is dumber than husky). But they get that humans will not act like a dog and that their behavior needs to be different than with other dogs.

I had a great private tour of a wild animal rescue with the owner. He had lions, tigers, panthers, wolves, etc. He also had smaller wild cats that had been raised as pets. He let me go in with two 6 month old wolf cubs. It was so amazing.

The first thing I noticed is that they were far more attuned to my visual cues than puppies are. That's because being around humans isn't bred into them - so when I stood up straight, they reacted as if I were being standoffish or wary. They immediately backed off and became less playful with me. In contrast, Joe got down to their level and they were all over him. With puppies, they are bred to interact with people and that has been ingrained for thousands of years. So they understand that my standing up doesn't mean I'm standoffish or wary. It's just that humans like to stand up straight.

In contrast, I found that the cats behaved far more similar to our domestic cats. He had one abused wild cat that had just arrived. It behaved pretty much exactly like the abused rescue cat I had at home. Hid in its crate, ate only when no one was around, would listen to his talking but not to mine (a stranger). But domestic cats have not been bred to worship people like dogs have.

Side note: that was an amazing experience. Seeing one of the largest Siberian tigers in North America with just a chain link fence between us. My gods they are huge. I got stalked by a female African lioness. I petted a cougar. I met the wolf cubs.

Toedtoes said :
“My next complaint is the entire "protection" concept. I really hate the idea of getting a dog "for protection". If you want protection, get a gun. If you want a dog get a dog and if he discourages thieves, etc, because he's there, great. But training a dog to be protection is unnecessary and dangerous. Protection work is for people with a real need - like police, soldiers, etc. Families don't need that kind of protection. The idea of "protection dogs" is why shepherds, rotties, dobies, pit bulls, etc, get a bad rap. Because punky Joe Blow or drug dealer Meth Head or macho guy Ima Man think having an agressive dog is a status symbol. Having Cesar talk about the biggest of the litter being good for protection feeds into this attitude. The truth is any dog can protect you - even the runt of the litter - not because of it's place in the pack, but because it loves you.”

that seems to be an American perspective .

we can’t just “get a gun” for self protection here .
You can’t legally shoot people over here for protection too much.

as for meth heads having tough dogs and the like , I agree there .

problem is it’s the meth heads that do stuff like breaking into houses and attacking , robbing people.

so the old “ only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun , is a good guy with a gun “ philosophy ,
I’d even apply to dogs .

as I love hearing when a dog protects the owner and saves the day .

I don’t want a dog that’s going to kill someone or tear their arms off however ,
That would get me in trouble and I also have a conscience .
So I stay away from the super vicious dogs .
That’s why I like cattle dogs for looking after things ,

will bite if need be , not likely to kill the person bitten , good chance they’ll be still in the yard they were robbing begging to be let out when you get back .

besides , dogs prevent a lot just by barking at burglars so they would rather pick a different house .

for people who will fight like me , they can just let me know who’s there and I can take it from there .

And hopefully I would never need to pull the 12 gauge shotgun out after that .

glad I live in Australia , extremely low risk of gun death .

I'm not a gun person - I just mean that there are other tools that are better suited for protection.

Getting a dog simply to provide protection is like having a baby simply to have someone take care of you in old age - it completely misses the fact that living creatures aren't objects to be used.

I love a dog who protects his family - but that is usually the dog who is a loved and integral part of the family and the protection comes from that, not from training them to protect.

And sometimes the most docile, sweet, gentle dog will be the one to protect her family over the confident and tougher dog.

As you point out, a barking dog is a great deterrent. Just the look of a dog can deter problems - a black dog with big white teeth is extremely effective even if the dog is a wuss.

So to my mind, a dog should be gotten because you want a dog - not because you fear some unknown danger. If that dog deters or stops a danger, then that's great.

Years ago, I had a wonderful rescue purebred shepherd. One day, a man came to the door to ask to use my phone - my dog was right at the door staring at him. He left very quickly. Another time, I had been visiting my dad at a dog show. My sibling was coming by to drop off some furniture so I headed home. When I arrived, the front door was wide open and my sibling and her friend were watching tv in the living room. I asked "where's my dog?". She said " with you". I said know, she was here. What did you do to her. I then started calling and searching the house. In the bedroom, between the bed and the far wall, was my dog hiding. She had been there ever since she heard my sibling climbing through the dog door. Now that to me is the best protection in the world. She was protecting me but didn't risk her life for my tv.

Dogs have been used to guard throughout history .

the word protection can come in the form of inherited instinctual traits and also being trained .

livestock guardian dogs is one example , actually I’m told by a protection dog trainer that there is a link of traits which form a chain , which some dogs may not have the final link to become a trained protection dog like a German shepherd would .

you don’t have to train a cattle dog to guard your tools in the back of your ute , it’s bred into them although some won’t it’s a known trait , same as it is bred into them to herd , so they can herd cows and bite them by nipping , so biting is also an inherited instinctual trait .

people get them not only because they are suspicious and protective , because they are great dogs .

I think we have to be careful to not generalize between functional breeds carrying out the job they were intended for , and there is absolutely nothing wrong with them protecting their family ,
And the other extreme which is People who are irresponsible
Who just get a tough dog to bite .

Some dogs came about through necessity and guarding their human herd is still part of their job in the current day and age as it has been through history .
We have farms here and people are told these dogs are farm dogs , though that gets them adapted to mean whatever they like ,

you can take the dog out of the job , you can’t take the job out of the dog .

My Akitas can be intimidating when someone they don’t know pulls in the driveway. Bandit stands up on the fence and barks and Katie Mae runs around behind him barking. Great deterrent. But Bandit also stands up on the fence and barks when one of my friends leaves.

I was robbed November of 2017 while I was walking Bandit on the beach on a Sunday afternoon (before I got Katie Mae). It was meth heads. They had previously robbed my neighbor, and robbed him again a few days after me. Pretty sure they were watching and new I had left. I actually know who it was, they used to live on our road. They got evicted and so they came back and robbed us. When they lived here they went elsewhere to steal stuff. That guy had a warrant out for him and supposedly left the state. I hate thieves.

My previous Akita Darkstar stopped a guy walking down our dirt road. I didn’t have a fence at that time, but he didn’t wander (I’d never have an Akita again without a fence, but I got lucky). I was in the woods tossing firewood to where I could drive my truck to get it. I heard him barking, as well as his brother, who I was watching for a buddy while he was on vacation (they were each other’s only dog friend). I always kept one of them on a cable, because they’d explore together if I didn’t. So my buddies dog is barking up a storm buy my house and Darkstar is barking a little bit up the road. After about 5 minutes I realized I should see what’s up. Well Darkstar was circling this guy, not letting him move at all, but not engaging him physically. The guy looked like a drug addict and had a hatchet hanging from his belt behind him. He’d walked 1/2 mile down the road. He had some lame excuse for what he was doing there and what the hatchet was for. I told him to leave and never come back, that the dog he heard barking but couldn’t see, because he was around the corner, was bigger and meaner then the one who had stopped him, and that’s why he was tied up. He was actually glad I finally showed up because he was trapped. That dog earned every kibble and treat and all my affection with that one encounter. Well he’d have gotten all that stuff anyhow but you know what I mean.

I think there is a difference between getting a working dog to work and getting a dog simply to be protection.

Herding dogs are working dogs. As such, they have developed traits that make them good at herding.

Malinois are working dogs. They have developed traits to make them good for police work.

Some dogs have ingrained traits to "protect" their humans. But to get a dog for the sole purpose of attack training it so it will "protect" you is my issue.

There is a huge difference between a dog with a protective trait/street that is appreciated, and attack training a dog to live in your yard for the sole purpose of attacking strangers.

A herding dog that nips at heels is doing what she is bred to do. A terrier that chases vermin is doing she's bred to do. A guarding dog that is protective of his person or flock is doing what he's bred to do. A dog that attacks a human on command had to be trained - and that is not necessary for a non-police dog.

I’ve read, in more than one place, that you will mess up an Akita if you try to train it to be a protection dog, but they just do it naturally.

I personally do not like guns, and have never owned one and only shot one once. If someone shows up with a gun, they can have whatever. Things are replaceable, life not so much.

Years ago a rented (partial work trade to repair) a small house in a very rural part of Oregon. There were a fair amount of black bears around and the house came with a 22 shotgun to scare them off. I gave it to the owner and said I didn’t want it around. I hadn’t been living there long when I saw the biggest pile of poop I’d ever seen, left by a bear. After that I would talk to myself when I walked outside at night

It’s funny , (not the haha type of funny) that some people want a certain trait especially biting but don’t realize they got the whole recipe in one dog not just the one trait .
So if they tried to stick a cattle dog in their small yard to bite a stranger and didn’t give it everything else it needed ,
It would probably cause them more trouble than it would get them out of .
That’s one example and other breeds will cause them trouble too .

this thread got me thinking and laughing about a couple memories too .

one was the neighbors cow had jumped the fence into our paddock .

I asked him if he wanted me to get blue to stop it so it didn’t get out into the road as there was no fence at the front and it would then be loose .

he said yes go ahead , so I told blue to get it and when she did she ran at the cow barking and went to give it a nip and back it up ,
Then she turned to the farmer and jumped up head height to give him a nip too , luckily she did not lol
After all he was in our paddock and who was he !

and I said no blue only the cow and she understood .
He was going to get rounded up too with the cow .

another time a loose bull came running up the road where we were in a rural area sizing us up ,
I had had a knee operation and was in a vulnerable position and blue stepped in and pulled it up barking saving me .

the bull then went beserk and ran into the caravan park there and started smashing the tables , trailers and even tried to hump the spare wheel on a caravan . She really did save the day .

there’s been a couple other times she has saved me and once some drugged out guy was looking in the ute and she would not stop growling at him , very good instincts to know he was up to no good as she’s normally friendly .

funny how dogs just know , once my other dog who was also friendly saw a weird guy who used to hang around the primary school where the young kids were .

she ran out the gate like she’d seen a rabbit or some prey and before I knew what was happening she had bit him on the ass .

so the gate was left open , and we hadn’t accounted for that instinct even with a friendly dog .
There’s the chance they may know something you don’t .

luckily the matter went no further .

As a kid, we had a husky, belgian sheepdog and my sad looking little rescue white boxer.

The husky was a husky - smart, clever, and not always good with other dogs, especially males.

The belgian was a true herder and a confident dog.

My boxer was sweet, gentle, shy, timid. Her feelings got hurt easily. Cameras stole her soul. You couldn't say the word b-a-d in any context without her cringing in shame. She knew the word "pitbull" was an insult. She never growled, snapped, etc - no matter what she faced. She won the Guide Dogs for the Blind's "obstacle course" every year because she reacted to nothing.

One time, a friend, my sibling and I took the dogs to the local park. We were between 10 and 13 or so. Two 20-something guys came up to us with their very large chocolate lab. They started harassing us. The husky and the belgian paid no attention. My boxer stood in front of us and growled at the guys and their dog - hackles up. They all backed off. That dog never growled or took a stand again.

The belgian was a true herder. We used to have my younger sibling run and let the dog chase her, grabbing at her pant legs until she stopped moving. There was an annoying kid on my bus. Not mean, just annoying. He had to pass my house to get home from the bus stop. One day, I told him I would sic our dog on him. He called my bluff. I brought out thebelgian and said "sic him!". The kid started running. The dog started running after him ( I had her on a leash and was with her) and tried to nip his pant leg. From that day forward all I had to do was say her name and that kid was running home. Of course, the dog only ran because he did...

In Decemember 2019, while on vacation, my home was burglarized and everything was taken - down to the plain wooden boxes my deceased pets' ashes were in (they dumped the ashes on the floor). All my pets were with me. I can truly say with no doubt whatsoever that I would rather have me pets safe and alive than have them risk injury or death by protecting my belongings.

I don’t think anyone would try to enter my house if I wasn’t home but my dogs were. They stand up on the door and bark. Now sometimes Katie Mae will hear something outside, when she’s inside, and start barking, even in the middle of the night. It’s definitely not my preferred way to be woken up. It’s quite a jolt. Sometimes it starts with a guttural growl from deep and then turn into a bark. She reacts to things sooner than Bandit. She will be inside, with the door open, and Bandits outside, and she will bark first. I’m pretty sure she didn’t bark her first 2.5 years. She would just do the deep guttural growl.

There she goes. Up off the bed to the window to let out a little growl. Just my neighbors friend leaving

Truth is I don’t know what would happen if it came down to it with my two .
The pup is still finding his feet , and the older girl is such a sweet nature dog ,
It all comes as a surprise , even if they do like to guard the yard by barking .

When I was putting the house back together after the burglary, a friend's brother was installing carpet treads on my stairs. I had to run an errand and left the dogs with him in the house. About an hour later, the friend called to let me know his brother left and would finish the stairs the next day.

Apparently, Bat-dog had been laying in the living room staring at his brother the entire time. He said it was a very intense stare and it scared him. She never growled or made any aggressive movement or anything. She just stared at him from the time I left until the time he left. I told him she was just making sure he didn't steal anything...

Moose-dog was crashed out on the couch.