To neuter or vaccinate? General Chat

Yesterday it was 17 months since Inca passed, last night I found myself dreaming about puppies!

Since the scares over vaccinations I've been following a group on FB who advise against vaccinations and neutering young.

Inca had been neutered at 4 months old (she was from a rescue) I didn't know then it could have an affect on her behaviour, she was 'puppy-like' and hyper for years and had severe seperation anxiety most of her life. Not settling down until she was in her senior years. Inca was vaccinated every year until she was about 13 when her health went down hill after her vaccinations that year.

In comparison JJ who will be 5 yrs old next month, seems much more mature and laid back. He was neutered at 9 months. JJ had his puppy jabs and has had a few boosters but after Inca was ill and the scare stories were coming out about the L4 vaccine being dangerous he hasn't had any vaccinations since. He seems to have matured more in the last couple of years I don't know if its a coincidence that hasn't been vaccinated those years and would have matured more anyway?

My question is if I was to get a puppy and didn't want to neuter until it was older so it had chance to mature this time, Would it be be easier for me with a female or a male? Bearing in mind I have one neutered male in the house already.

Inca was the only female I've ever had (we always had male dogs when I was growing up) and as she had been neutered young I've no experience of dealing with seasons to know how difficult this may be and whether JJ would be 'too interested' in her at that time? whether it would still be safe to walk her? if there's stuff you can get now and how effective it is? (thought I'd seen some 'bitch spray' somewhere online that's meant to minimise they smell that they are in heat) and heard stories about greyhound owners giving their females the pill to stop them coming into heat when they want to race them?

If I got a male puppy would he have fights with JJ when the pup started to reach maturity if he wasn't done? Would he be wanting to take over as 'top dog' so to speak as soon as puberty kicked in?

And lastly would it be safe to not vaccinate a puppy at all and just give him/her those nosode things? or should he/she at least have their puppy shots then no more?

Just some things that have been going round my head that I feel I'd need to know the answer to before I took the next step if I was going to go with getting another puppy from a young age.

Thanks

Kati

Vaccinations, are a personal choice, it is up to the individual to research and make there own decision, the new protocol is every 3 years,I personally don’t vaccinate after the puppy vacs then the first booster.

I don’t believe in Neutering for the sake of it unless there is a health problem

Would it cause problems between the dogs if one male was left entire when the eldest wasn't?

I think I'd want it doing at some point to prevent cancer and in a bitch pyrometria and phantom pregnancies. I don't know how hard they would be to deal with?

I feel JJ may prefer a male, I don't know if its related to Inca originally being a bit of bully with him when he was a puppy and he's never forgotten but he's more likely to growl at bitches we meet out who come up to him. He seems more wary of them particuarly if they're around his size. The dogs he does seem to engage with seem to be mostly male.

A neighbour on one side also has a really nasty female shih tzu that goes at him through the fence, though her male one is fine with him. I think between them (Inca & Chloe) they've put him off women..lol!

I believe that JJ is your assistance dog therefore if you do get another puppy you should make sure that JJ would be accepting of another dog in the household. Whether you spay or neuter a new dog would be your decision. I had a good reason for spaying my girls, and that was because they were rescue puppies and I did not want to bring more, probably unwanted, puppies into the world where most would be unwanted.

Regarding vaccinations - whether your FB group agree or not, for the sake of the puppy, and JJ, the least a new puppy needs the basic puppy shots.

Yeah I'd look into it alot more before deciding. Which small breeds do the males typically have more laid-back temperaments? I think if the pup was submissive and not intent on taking over JJ would be fine with him. That's why I thought a younger pup would be better as he won't bother with it at first and I wouldn't let it pester him. I'd use a puppy crate and playpen to keep him safe when I couldn't supervise as I did when JJ was young.

Inca didn't like any dogs at all and got used to JJ! JJ does at least like some other dogs and has dogs he plays with.

I know lots of people who don’t have their bitches spayed/males neutered but they don’t plan to breed and they are well supervised to prevent unwanted litters.

I really feel that people are being brainwashed into the neuter bandwagon because they think it’s the right thing to do, with recent studies proving that neutering too young has its pitfalls I think more vets should take heed rather than pushing for early neutering.

I have never had a dog therefore neutering/castrating has never been something I have thought about. Both Lexi and Pereg [bitches] were spayed three months after their first season, Tikva was spayed when she was six months old before she had had a season. Not really juvenile spaying for any of them although I still think she was too young. But I trust my vet and understood the reason he wanted her spayed once she was old enough and weighed enough.

I do agree that juvenile spaying/neutering can cause problems later on, but when the only place my girls could go out was impossible for me to supervise, I did the best that both I and my vet considered the right thing to do.

I think everyone has their own priorities. Eddie is the first male dog that I have had neutered. I followed my gut feeling and judged the timing the same way that I would do for a horse, ie. waited until he had stopped growing, and had developed that proud muscular crest to his neck. In his case it was 15 months. It made no difference to his character - he only likes dogs that he knows well, unless they are Beagles. He suffers from two autoimmune conditions, so he hasn't had any boosters since 2012, at my vets suggestion.
My two rescue bitches, Mia and Tweed, were spayed together. Tweed was 3 months after her first season, and Mia, who had been starvation case and never really flourished, was about 5. My pedigree bitches were all spayed at 6 years old, but most of them had had one or two litters by then.
My vet has been using the 3 year protocol since 2005, and I am happy to go along with it. We are entitled to free healthchecks on the intervening years, which I don't bother about as we seem to be there often enough as it is!

I think looking back that Inca was spayed too young. when I compare how she was in her early years with JJ, and yes I know they're different personalities and stuff but she stayed a really hyper dog for a long time, had SEVERE seperation anxiety and I'm sure I made it worst as the advice I got them wasn't the best. I didn't have internet then. She did settle down when my mobility was getting really bad and when she was learning lots of new stuff to help me and with hindsight maybe she was getting too much walking/running and not enough mental stimulation.

JJ seemed to settle right from the beginning and apart from a few 'naughty teen incidents' he has settled into a more laid back dog much earlier in his life. He was done at 9 months as recommended by my vets.

But I'm seeing alot of stuff online saying to wait until they are like 2 years old or for a bitch, after her first season.

Inca also had more health problems than our previous dogs they weren't vaccinated yearly either Inca had been since a young puppy. JJ had his puppy shots and boosters and hasn't had any more since after all the stories came out about dogs dying after vaccinations, as I rely on him I wasn't willing to risk it and people keep telling me he should be covered for life now anyway.

My old vet, before we moved here, used to do annual vaccinations. For my bunch, who were out at shows and ringcraft most weeks, he did say that I could probably let it slide after about six - unless there was a local outbreak of parvo. For the Lurchers, I have had occasional extra shots for Lepto, (not L4), but they charge the same as a full vacc. As it is treatable, I let that slide. I just do the standard 3 yearly jab for Merry.
Most of my friends either do like Vee and stop after the 12 month booster, or religiously booster every 12 months because they have these vet contracts.
I once worked with a girl who used nosodes, her dogs never contracted anything, but perhaps they were also protected by herd immunity.

I do not have a vet contract, whatever that is, nor do I have any pet insurance [unavailable here] but I do have an unfenced front yard and there are far too many dumped dogs around who have probably never had any vaccinations. So it is yearly boosters, yearly rabies shots [mandatory but too many people do not bother], and now the three-monthly Parkworm shots.

I am just not prepared to risk anything preventable happening. Same with internal and external parasites.

What country are you in that there's no pet insurance?? I live in a village in rural yorkshire (UK) we have our own private back yard. When I do take JJ out I go out at quietest times of day so we don't see many others and don't go to the place most other locals use as a dog park/meeting place (mainly because its not accessible to my mobility scooter) so I have to go a bit further to find a field where I can let him off and we go round the surrounding villages with him running alongside the scooter on the pavement on like a running harness attached to the scooter.

Like Carole mentioned I believe most people in the village have their vets vaccinated so probably due to herd immunity and the fact I never go anywhere busy, he doesn't go in kennels or doggy day care or anything, he's never caught anything, but has had his puppy shots and a couple of years boosters so his risk maybe low anyway?

I'm not sure if this would be the same for a puppy that hadn't had any? But after someone I know had a puppy die from having full dose vaccinations and it only being tiny, that worries me too. I don't understand why they don't work out the dose in relation to their weight like other medications are?

Yes and rightly so, I find it refreshing that we are all having an amicable discussion that others may learn from.

The neutering campaign was started by rescues in response to too many litters being born and too many unwanted dogs. Has it cured the problem, I don’t think so.

Over time and with new research it became apparent that if neutered before ‘maturity’ Health and Behavior problems occurred.
Most vets still recommend neutering for behavior problems when in fact research has shown it to make them worse, how many vets take the time to explain to customers the Pro’s and Cons, it’s just a big money spinner to them.

I would love to know how Sweden are doing considering its ‘Illegal’ to neuter unless for medical problems.

I started looking into vaccinations when one of my Akitas developed autoimmune Pemphigus, believed to be triggered by vaccinations, that was before I discovered that Gsd’s and Akitas are listed in Predisposed Breeds that can have reactions to vaccinations.

I didn't know that! I'd like to know this too!

I've read on forum (think it was Horse and Hound) that some greyhound owners give their bitches the human pill to stop them coming into season when they want to race them. I wonder why no-one has studied this in more detail? Are there any side effects for the dogs doing this rather than neutering? ..as dogs only have a season twice a year is it? so it's not like they're having to take it every month like humans do! It could be more convenient for example if you had an holiday booked and your bitch was coming into season as a temporary solution for that season, rather than putting them through major surgery??

Again with regards to males surely medication could more accurately lower testosterone levels so they were lowered enough to reduce wanted behaviours in a specific dog but not cutting it off completely (as in castration) so no permanent affect on the dogs maturing and growth plates closing etc? I can only think because vets can't make as much money out of a few tablets as they can people paying for surgery! ..as males would only need the medication to lower levels during the months it was highest and they were growing and females would only need it a couple of times a year when they were in season and it fell at an awkward time for the owner?

I found this article about dogs in Norway.

http://sciencenordic.com/should-dogs-be-neutered

A vet who had worked both in US and Norway said she treated more bites on dogs (from other dogs) in Norway and more mammary tumours and uterine infections in female dogs than she did in the US where nearly all dogs are neutered and in some places you can be fined or can't use dog parks unless your dog is neutered.

That is true, early spaying is the best protection against mammary tumours. I think the risk is only about 0.5% when puppies are spayed before the first season. I would say that the jury is still out on the behavioural effects though - there are just too many confounding factors. Maybe it's selfish, but I know that my dogs wouldn't look the way they do, (or did), if they had been neutered as juveniles, and a large part of my pleasure in being a dog owner is in the appreciation of their aesthetic aspect. For a dog to look balanced in outline, and finished in its development, it needs all it's hormones.
Maybe if I had had a lot of bitches with mammary tumours I would be forced to change my opinion, but I must have had at least 25 bitches over the past 64 years, and only the first one, my only Sheepdog, had breast cancer.

What about vaccinations though would nosodes provide the same advantages as the core vaccine without the side effects?

I used nosodes years ago, you can start puppies on them but I waited till after initial vacs and first booster,did it work I honestly don’t know, with nosodes you only use when needed, they were originally designed to treat a disease, not protect against it.

I don't think I could have sufficient faith in nosodes.

ok thanks I'm finding the male/female decision difficult. Part of me would love another girl and keep finding myself looking at things for female dogs, But I wonder what if I got a young pup and she came into season before I was expecting and would it make things difficult especially with having a male in the house? Most sites seem to say 6-18 months for the adolescent stage but I was looking at smaller breeds and some say they can come into season as early as 4 months.

Inca had been done at 4 months and I think it was too early as I said she was very slow to mature and had severe seperation anxiety most of her life. so unless I was lucky enough to find a young female rescue that had already been done, but not too early in which case she'd have probably had her first vaccinations anyway and that decision would also be taken out of my hands. I just wouldn't give anymore.


my brain is telling a male pup would be easier to have from a very young age if I wanted to do that. At least from the viewpoint of there been no risk of him coming into season before any surgery and me not realising and taking him out after it had started, (by accident). I'd be likely to maybe have him done around same age JJ was if I think it may cause problems or if they were happily living together with no fights leave it until later. That wouldn't really be an option getting a female pup from very young. A slightly older adoption may work better if I wanted to go with female but then theres less chance of JJ liking an older female as he seems to prefer male company! (at least as far as other dogs go). so I'm struggling to get past this first decision at the minute.

I think I need to do more research on the female dogs 'season' to understand how and when that happens signs its coming etc so I can decide if I could cope with that, if I still really wanted to go with a very young female pup. As I said Inca had already been done so it's never been a subject I've had to worry about or look into before.

Thanks